John Wesley Norton's BOOMCAST
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John Wesley Norton's BOOMCAST
#45 - FRANCHISE FEVER: FRIDAY THE 13th #2
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It's FRIDAY THE 13! Again! Welcome to the the final chapter of our FRIDAY THE 13th retrospective!
Once again, Ben Lewandowski, Jonathan Schiffly and myself take a peak at the second half of the slasher classic series featuring everyone's favorite undead killer, JASON VOORHEES!
If you are still alive after part 1, refill your the popcorn, turn it up, and try to survive!
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Boom cast. Welcome to Franchise Fever, and tonight we are continuing on with our Friday the 13th retrospective. This is part two, the final chapter in this series. Once again, joining me is Friday the 13th Expert Ben Lewandowski. How are you doing, Ben? Real good. Real good. Excellent. And Jeepers, Creepers, Aficionado, Jonathan Shiffley. How you doing, buddy? I'm good. I'm good. We got some good stuff tonight, boy. Starting out with Friday the 13th, The New Blood, 1988.
SPEAKER_12Directed by John Carl Buchler. Budget 2,800,000. Box Office 19,200,000.
SPEAKER_16This is the one you've been waiting for. Your psychokinesis and these delusions are the one you've been tested.
SPEAKER_02Golly gee guys. This is what the film is about, reportedly. Set seven years after the events of the previous film, the plot follows a psychokinetic teenager who unwittingly releases Jason from his tomb at the bottom of Crystal Lake, or Forest Green, or whatever the hell they're calling it, allowing him to go on another killing spree in the area. The new blood was intended to have a higher standard of quality than that of the previous installments, with high-profile directors being considered to helm the project. Paramount Pictures sought a partnership with New Line Cinema to create a crossover film between the Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street series, which would not come to fruition until New Line bought the rights to the franchise. Releasing Freddie vs. Jason in 2003, after several failed concepts, screenwriter Daryl Haney suggested an idea akin to Jason vs. Carrie, in which Jason would battle a teenage girl with psychokinetic ability. So there you go, gentlemen. This is Jason versus Carrie. What do you think about that, Jonathan? I was actually gonna say, yeah.
SPEAKER_28It's like Jason versus Carrie or Jason versus Firestarter. You know? I tell you, man, this girl's got all kinds of powers in this thing. I like it. I mean, I think it's uh We're at the point where this franchise is so batshit crazy anyway. And we finally got on the right track with part six. I think this is kind of the natural progression. While I think this installment's weaker than the sixth movie, I don't think it's that much weaker. Yeah, agreed. What do you think about this one, Ben?
SPEAKER_19Uh, this is one of my favorites. Oh, no kidding. Something I read recently when doing research for this, this movie had a really troublesome producer named Barbara Sox. And one of her first ideas was corporate real estate developer covers up all of the Jason Forty's murders in order to create a condominium establishment on Crystal Lake. Thank the fuck Christ, that got vetoed. That's exactly where you want to live. This producer was incredibly ambitious. She wanted this film to win an Academy Award. And I shit you not, several high-profile helmers were considered for the job of helming part seven, including Italian filmmaker, and I'm not making this up, Federico Fellini. You are making that up. So this franchise was not only written and directed by crazy people, it was uh also produced by crazy people. Something else interesting I I read real quickly, this entire production went from pre-production, post-production, and release in six months and 27 days. I shit you not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I know you guys, but I think I can tell. Yeah, there's some things about this that don't seem nearly as competent as the last film. But I mean, I agree with Jonathan. I mean, it's an interesting, it is a supernatural franchise at this point. I mean, having the girl come in was was was different and new. It was kind of neat. I don't know about the performance though. Uh I'm not gonna say anything mean. Never mind. I'll take it back.
SPEAKER_28No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'll say it. I'll say it. Yeah, who's performing?
SPEAKER_28I think the performance fucking sucked. Um that was one of my notes. I mean, honestly, this movie just didn't really have many memorable characters. Probably the most memorable dialogue for me was the opening narration by Walt Gourney.
SPEAKER_13There's a legend around here. A killer buried, but not dead. A curse on Crystal Lake. A death curse. But he keeps coming back. Some have seen him left. Some have even tried to stop it. No one died. People forget. He's down there. Wait.
SPEAKER_28I thought that was awesome. I thought it was a really cool way to open this film. It's not been done before. Almost this like western style, like you got a hobo and a train telling a uh tall tale, right? I thought that was a really neat way to open the movie. I liked it.
SPEAKER_19Hey, what about Terry Kaiser as Dr. Bad N Cruz?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_19Absolutely. We can at Bernie's.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's he's he's cool. I do like him. I do like the way this starts out. Let's just talk about the power set of this girl for a second. Okay. Because she's not just telekinetic, right? She's pyrokinetic, and I guess she can see the future and apparently bring the dead back to life. I mean, this is this is a seriously powerful young lady.
SPEAKER_28She also looks like the chick from Poltergeist in the opening. Oh, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_19Oh, little um little Jennifer Banco. She really does. She does kind of look like that. I I I do like Susan Jennifer Sullivan as as uh the super bitch Melissa.
SPEAKER_18Hi, Nick. Are you still mad at me?
SPEAKER_06What was that crap you pulled on Tina this afternoon?
SPEAKER_18Alien's. That chick's crazy. Alice Fair and love and war.
SPEAKER_19Melissa, I don't even like you.
SPEAKER_18Black has nothing to do with it.
SPEAKER_19Yeah. Like I said, I do like Terry Kaiser. I do like Laura Park Lincoln, but she has uh more chemistry with a roof shingle than she does with Kevin Blair, who plays Nick Rogers, the uh male lead.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_19Wow.
SPEAKER_20Yeah.
SPEAKER_02One thing before we get started on the story, I think the cinematography here is a lot darker than the last one. It it and they it could be because of the the rush job that this actually was. So it doesn't hit the highs of the last film. And it's it's not quite as slick.
SPEAKER_19One of the reasons it's so dark is they're trying to obscure the fact that they're literally shooting in Alabama in fall. Wait, no, that's wrong. Fall no, no, sorry. October to November with pickups being shot in February of eighty-eight. Oh, wow. In Alabama. Yeah, they were shooting this in February. The movie was released in May.
SPEAKER_02And they didn't have a lot of time. Plus, I don't think the kills are as good in this one. I I you guys may like this. I I think this is a step back for me personally. You think so? Yeah, I kind of do. Because well, I remember a lot of these were trimmed to shit by the MPAA. They sure were. That's a note that I have. If I felt like I was watching a TV version.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, they cut they cut the shit out of them. Once again, just like with part five, I think Barry Zettlin, the editor, once said in Crystal Lake Memories, this went back seven to ten times again to get certified by the MBA, so they had to cut. Remember, this is this is the first time that the Helmer of a Friday film was a real whiz with practical makeup effects. This is John Carl Beekler, who had previously done makeup work on oh, you name it Sorceress, Forbidden World, Mausoleum, Dungeon Master, Death Stalker, Trancers, Reanimator, Ghoulies, Eliminators, Terror Vision, From Beyond, Dolls, Ghoulies 2. I think he did work on Nightmare 4, I think he did work on Halloween 4, Robot Jocks, uh, Chris and Michael Myers, and then of course he was a he became a director in in 84 doing uh most notably troll in uh in Cellar Dweller. So I think if we would have gotten the original version of these makeup effects, you'd probably have a a different idea because I really think of all the films in the series, this one really, really does not benefit from MPAA meddling. It takes a hit. Right.
SPEAKER_28Well, it's it's interesting you say that too, Ben, because I got a note here. This is actually my favorite Jason look. Oh, 100%. And I think even without the mask on, and I guess we'll get to that later at the end, this is the best maskless Jason, I think, that we've seen.
SPEAKER_23My intention was to redesign the look of Jason specifically to reflect all the damage that had been done to him in the previous movies, and the fact that he had been chained to the bottom of a lake for 10 years at the beginning of the movie gave me a starting point. I mean, he was resurrected from the dead in the previous one. Uh, they shoved uh uh the blades of a motorboat into his neck and his face. And I just got tired of seeing you know a guy in a gray costume wearing gloves with a hockey mask, walking around, and there was nothing wrong with him. So I made a lot wrong with him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a pretty that's a pretty exquisite face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_28Only the face of Mother Good Love.
SPEAKER_19Kane Hodder, who portrays this is the first of four performances as Jason. His Jason is fantastic. I think he looks better than Richard Brooker in part three, although I like Richard Brooker better, but you're right, the unmasked look is second to none. Yeah.
SPEAKER_28And Kane just knows how to carry himself. Yep. I think his portrayal of Jason is far more cruel. He takes that like Terminator to the next level, right?
SPEAKER_02It's just almost unstoppable at this point. Agreed. There is a lot of silliness in this. I mean, you're not getting away from any of the camp that's been introduced. Some of the kills are goofy, the characters are goofy. So but the storyline is a pretty affecting storyline. She's carrying a lot of weight in this, you know, and I I just wish that the movie would have would have gone in that direction, a lot darker. But uh, you just can't get away from these disposable characters that they keep plugging into these things.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, you're never gonna accuse John Carl Beakler of being an actor's director. I don't really think they gave a shit about performances here, and it's fairly obvious.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay, let's just say it. Let's just say the Lar Park Lincoln, you know, 80% of bad acting is bad directing, you know? Yeah. And I think we know that. Yeah. Because someone had to approve that. And instead of saying, no, I don't think it's quite there yet, I'm not really feeling it, they just say, okay, good, let's move on. We only got, you know, 16 minutes till this thing has to be in theaters. So I don't know, man. I I just think she I think it could have been better. It's it's very shaky. It's very shaky. Oh, and the editing thing that we were talking about earlier, I think because of this time crunch that you were explaining, Ben, I think that's yeah. Like in the other films, if the if the ratings board said no, we gotta cut 50, you know, 50 seconds or three minutes or whatever it is out of the film, 10 frames, they might have a little time to finesse it. This one, being that there's no time, they just chopped it. They cut exactly what was offensive and did not rework the edit. That's what it feels like to me.
SPEAKER_19It's very choppy as a result of a post-production schedule that was clearly rushed and a lot of producing, meddling, which we're gonna get to in a second, and then the MPAA. And once again, they just didn't have a lot of time, and you can tell. Yeah. It's a s it's a sloppy, cheap looking movie. Yeah, it's very sloppy. There's no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_02It is called Crystal Lake again. Uh, we've left the Forest Green uh detour that we had last time, and now we're back to I still would like to s have somebody explain to me that particular plot point of changing Crystal Lake to Forest Green.
SPEAKER_19I just think they wanted to take it in a different direction. I think it was just a piece of lore, which obviously from this film is is abandoned completely because we're back to Crystal Lake. Yeah. That is a good point. It makes no sense, but eh, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was trying to figure it out and I just I just gave up because I can't figure out half the things in these films.
SPEAKER_19And you know what's ironic? There's continuity between six and seven because Jason is at the bottom of the lake. So why didn't they just continue calling this forest green? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
SPEAKER_02Right. There's this one really goofy part that I I don't know why I thought it was funny. I had been drinking again. I don't know why I drink when I watch these. I shouldn't. Because my notes make no sense. When they're asking Nick, I think the doctor said somebody asks Nick. Now I'm really I'm really fuzzy. He says, uh, do you have a picture of your cousin? And because he was missing, I guess. He says, Yeah, you know, I do. And he pulled out his wallet and there's a picture of his cousin. And I'm thinking, what man carries a picture of their cousin in their wallet? You know?
SPEAKER_19That's a very good point.
SPEAKER_02I don't. I do agree that uh Kane Hodder's pretty brutal in this, you know, and I can see why he's a fan favorite. He's a commanding presence as Jason.
SPEAKER_19Oh, he's I'd say for in terms of most of the fandom, I'd say that he is most people's favorite um Jason, only because most people think of the Jason Boris character, they think of they think of Kane because he he had done four films. Right. He's generally regarded as being synonymous with the character. I like I've said many times, I actually prefer another Jason, but I do agree with Shiffley that you can really tell that Kane cares about this character because he adds a lot of his own personality, like the way he moves his head, the way he breathes, his general gait. He's menacing. And the practical makeup effect work in in this film that really brings it out. Right. It's pretty terrifying.
SPEAKER_02Agreed. The telekinetic thing, I guess we can talk about that because that that is the one thing that is added here. It's an element. It is different than anything else in any of the other films. I wish it was handled just a tad better, uh, but I mean, if she has the power to bring people back to life, I mean, come on. Get with it, girl.
SPEAKER_19I do love when she collapses the roof onto his head. That's that's fantastic. And when she smashes the light bulb and then he he takes a tumble down the stairs through the stairs, that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_27That's a good stunt. Uh I walk up the stairs, get to the top, and as written was she makes the late light shake and swing and hit me in the chest, and I tumble down the stairs. And I remember talking to John about that saying, you know, it's kind of weak. You know, I mean, first of all, I think the light should hit him in the face, which is no problem since I had the hockey mask on. And then I said, What if, you know, he's a he's a big monster guy. He's not gonna go tumbling downstairs. What if he just falls through them? So we manufactured, once I was at the top of the stairs, we manufactured uh balsa wood stairs for about 10 of them or something. And I remember just falling backwards, which wasn't that difficult, although it was a small area to fall into. I had to be right on the on the mark going backwards, and I wanted to fall like a tree. That which is why it's such a uh dramatic fall going through the steps. And I had a landing area underneath, but it was very narrow. And come to find out after the stunt that I went and looked at the stairs and my my head had crashed through through the very last balls of wood stair. The one right below that, which is only two inches away, was where the practical one started. So it's a good thing I didn't go any further because I would have really smashed my head on the on the on the real wood.
SPEAKER_19Uh, you know what else is a good stunt is the uh the explosion of the house, which was apparently a huge fuck-up. That's an intense explosion, man.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, that was so so good. Holy shit. I was thinking of you, Ben, when I when I saw that. I'm like, oh, I bet Ben loves this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19That's one of the reasons it's my favorite. I love it when things explode.
SPEAKER_02So what was the problem with the explosion? Was it larger than they had anticipated? Significantly larger. Oh, no kidding.
SPEAKER_19Unfortunately, they had two, I have I think five cameras. Three of them were destroyed. Holy shit. Yeah, they did get they picked it up on two, which is which is why the editing of the sequence is actually kind of choppy. But they blew the shit out of that house.
SPEAKER_02It's a big explosion. I mean, uh big enough to where I thought, you know what, they just don't do this kind of thing in Friday 13th movies. That's kind of new too. Yeah, I I appreciated that. I knew you would too. It was pretty cool. Oh, this movie's got the sleeping bag kill in it, doesn't it? It's does. Yeah. And that's awesome.
SPEAKER_28That's a fun kill.
SPEAKER_02I was waiting for you to ask about that. That's one of that's a fan favorite. Oh, yeah. Oh she deserved it for the line that she gave.
SPEAKER_03Okay, you big huck of a man, come and get me. Dad?
SPEAKER_02And she I I would, yeah, I would have done the same thing.
SPEAKER_19I would have loved to have seen what Jason's um dismantling of Dr. Cruz looks like when he kills him with the brush cutter, but obviously they had to trim that because it was just too graphic. I wish I could have seen that in its entirety because that may have done it, but yeah, that sleeping bag kill. The sleeping bag kill is so good, they ripped it off in another Friday the 13th film.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But the I don't know. I'm just I think the kills were uh a step down from last time, and I wish there was some kind of unrated version.
SPEAKER_19There is deleted material taken from the broadcastmasters that you can see on really shitty 360 quality on YouTube. Oh, no kidding. Um, but they're they're not complete. But yeah, I agree with you. I wish we could see this film as as it was originally intended by by John Beaker. That would have been because like I said, I think that this movie would really change in in in terms of rankings, individual rankings by fans. Yeah. This is the first Friday movie I saw in theaters, by the way. That's what I'm saying. No, no kidding. I'm a little biased, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I just think coming off the highs of the previous film, I was just I I I really do think it was a step down. I know it had a lot of things working against it, so you know, I'll forgive that. But it's just unfortunate. They were really trying to ramp this series up.
SPEAKER_19Let me read a great review I I just found. Uh, Star Gazettes, Amnikabac. She wrote the film is quote, geared to appeal to the viewer's basic instincts. Horrific moments of graphic mutilation are interwoven with nude and sex sequences, adding, the off-beat Tina is reminiscent of Stephen King's carry, but unlike Sissy Spaces, Lar Park Lincoln is unable to flesh out a human dimension. Fortunately, cult devotees of the series probably won't care, and that's fairly. I think Lark Lar Park Lincoln is fine. The script she's given is not very good, and she's not given much to do outside of look menacing. Uh, I wish it was a better role. I I wish she had a better cast, but she does have a great Jason to work opposite. I'll give her that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I don't think fans of the series do care. I think even us, we we're taking this stuff a little bit too seriously.
SPEAKER_28So yeah, I mean the I'm I'm willing to give a pass on some of the acting. Yeah. Big time. I don't think we have a choice. Especially because the production value of this movie is is taking it to the next level, so I do give them that. They they kept the production quality up.
SPEAKER_02I think it feels like a TV cut because um when they edit for TV, it's so it's a chop. They just chop. They just chop it. Right. And uh they there was no finesse once they did chop it in the edit. So and it and it stands out. I mean, it really stands out in this one. I I didn't really notice it much in the other films, but this one, yeah. This one I can tell fairly.
SPEAKER_19Once again, they just it just didn't have a lot of time. You i you c you could tell. We're talking about maybe. Maybe giving the actors two takes, maybe. There was just no time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The final girl showdown at the end is different because she can fight back in uh in a meaningful way. I you know, I guess that's kind of cool. I got no real problems with it. It's it's different, but we needed something different, quite honestly.
SPEAKER_19What's ironic is she's without question the most powerful final girl. Yet I find myself, in terms of like a ranking, she would be on the bottom of my list. Which is really unfair. Because I I like Lark Park Lincoln in this. Like I said, I think a lot of it has to do with the material. It's a it's a conceptually, this is a great idea, but the execution is lacking. It's very similar to the next movie we're going to be discussing.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_19Right. Very similar.
SPEAKER_02I'm not super impressed with the kills in this. I think the kills are actually kind of weak compared to the last film. And if the kills are weak in this franchise, I think the movie is weak because that's what people go to see. That's what I, you know, that's what I like to see. It's not a bad entry. It doesn't rank all that high for me. I'll just say that.
SPEAKER_19I'm really disappointed with the end of this film when the dad comes back to life. Yeah, that was goofy. And once again, remember that producer, Barbara Sachs, I was telling you about? That was her decision. John Beaker wanted to basically make him look like Jason.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_19You know, he had been rotting at the bottom of Crystal Lake for over a dozen years. He's a corpse.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_19But for some reason, he looks he just, you know, he just looks like he needs a shower when he comes out of the water. It's fucking stupid.
SPEAKER_28It's a shame too, because the whole showdown at the end is excellent. It's well executed. I loved how they set Jason on fire with some of the slow motion sequences and using the pyrotech. Like it's really well done. Yeah. And then even when they get on the dock and Jason shows up and he grabs her and he throws her across the dock. I mean, he's brutal. Yeah. But then just all of a sudden, yeah, her dad just comes out of the water, grabs him, and drags him back down somehow. It's just it was just goofy, man.
SPEAKER_19Real quickly, before Tina starts to dismantle Jason, Melissa opens the door and Jason's at the front door and he puts that axe into her face. That's a great kill. And once again, that's exactly what we've been talking about. Had that kill been left in its entirety, that would have been fucking fantastic. Because the audience, I remember when I saw this in theaters, the audience cheered when she died. And then he just fucking throws her like a beanbag across the living room.
SPEAKER_02That's a great, that's a great toss.
SPEAKER_20It's great, yeah. It's great. But you're right.
SPEAKER_02We celebrate Jason in these films.
SPEAKER_20Especially moments like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_28Yeah. You know, kind of going back to Tina's dad re-emerging, it just felt like a weird way for closure to take place. Like she's got this abusive dad who beat the shit out of her mom, and then she kills her dad, uh, and then he comes and saves her. It's just a weird way to like tie that up at the end. I feel like there could have been a better way of doing it.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, it's one of the rare times this series recognizes like generational trauma, and uh props for them for doing that, but it's it's handled in the most misdirected way. Yeah, it's it's goofy.
SPEAKER_02To your point, Ben, if they just would have done a makeup job on the father, I think people might have accepted it just a tad more because it looks like he just fell in the water, you know? Yeah, it does. It's weird. It's weak, that's what it is. And you know, how did she do it? I've like I said, this chick is powerful, man. I mean, bringing people, you know, resurrecting people, holy cow, man. But yeah, I don't know where this ranks for me. Not one of my favorites. What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_28Um, for me, it's in the middle. I think it's better than some of the goofier installments, but I think to your point, John, it takes a step back from six, and that's kind of disappointing to me. Yeah. Because six had such momentum that this one really was teed up very well. And then they just dropped the ball, I think, on casting overall. I think if they had casted a better group of kids, a better lead, I think there would have been more to work with, but again, it just it felt kind of weak.
SPEAKER_02If what Ben says is true, and I have no reason to doubt him that this thing was pulled off in about five and a half months. That's insane. It's unrealistic. I I'm surprised it's as good as it is.
SPEAKER_19That comes straight from Crystal Lake Memories. Oh, I have no doubt. If you really pay attention to the the production value, it's a very cheap looking movie. Shooting in Alabama didn't help. I mean, you you can tell that quote lake they're on is junk. Um just a real cheap production. I I think they spent most of their time and energy into the practical makeup effects, because it certainly wasn't the goddamn acting. Right. And then the what does the MPAA do? It punishes them. It's just it's just so unfortunate. Um, I do like this movie. I love the intro. I absolutely love the intro. Yeah, it's good. The Walt Gourney as narrator. And you know what? It's an 88-minute movie. It breezes by, it's pretty efficient filmmaking for the most part.
SPEAKER_02The last thing I want to say, maybe you guys can help me out with this. So in six, Tommy Jarvis does his, you know, chain to the rock thing, and Jason falls under, and we're in this camp. But in this next film, there's a house on the lake right there. I I I thought, well, maybe it's just later on, and they've, you know, just destroyed the camp and built the house. But then I think this is no, this is her as a little girl. That's correct. So that would have been before the sixth movie. What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_19Well, technically you can make you can make the argument that it's it could also be after the sixth movie because the cabins that were there for the kids are now gone. Okay. So where's this house come from?
SPEAKER_02I mean, the house is right there on the dock.
SPEAKER_19All right, you want to hear my theory, which doesn't make any sense. Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02I love the theories. I love the theories. Good.
SPEAKER_19So after after the events of the sixth film, they raise the cabins that would have been exactly in that spot, right? Sure. They're destroyed, and a new the new house is built. My guess is that somewhere between one and five years goes by, and then the opening of part seven occurs, and then you gotta wait another dozen years for the second and third acts of part seven to take place. It's either that or this is a parallel universe timeline where Jason is in the water, but the surrounding location has altered. Because once again, from some of those some from some of those vantage points of Jason, when he's looking back past the shoreline, we should see the cabins from six, and we don't. But it's still the same lake, so where do they go? Are we just in a different vantage point? But when you look around the lake, you don't see them.
SPEAKER_02No, that house is right there because she runs out of the house onto the you know, I don't know, dude. I don't know. Maybe it's just another angle of the lake. Okay, sure. Sure. How about that? Yeah, whatever.
SPEAKER_19Nothing is gonna make sense, so whatever. Moving on.
SPEAKER_02Well, it gets even worse in the next installment. Yeah, it certainly does. It certainly does. All right, so let's go there.
SPEAKER_12Friday the 13th, Jason takes Manhattan, 1989, directed by Rob Hedden. Budget 5 million, box office 14 million, three hundred thousand.
SPEAKER_16Jason takes Manhattan. Now, New York has a new problem.
SPEAKER_02All right, Ben. Take us away. Friday the 13th, Jason takes Man. This is gonna be a good one.
SPEAKER_20Oh boy. Okay, so wow.
SPEAKER_19So this is it. This is the end of the paramount run of Friday the 13th films. They had fucking had it with this series. Very similar to Ted Turner owning uh World Championship Wrestling. They were just embarrassed by it. From what I've read over the years, they really wanted to go out with a bang. So they ponied up $5 million for the very, very ambitious idea of sending Jason to New York. This is where Shipley will take over, but I'm gonna do the first part. We're gonna do this in two parts. Because this is literally two different movies. First, we have Jason on a boat, and then we have Jason Goes to Vancouver with one shot in Times Square.
SPEAKER_02I tell you, man, the Crystal Lake, the area they're in, yeah, Vancouver, the mountains. I've never seen mountains like that in Crystal Lake before. That's it's amazing.
SPEAKER_28Isn't it though? There was like they just they just they shot it from a different angle.
SPEAKER_19They shot it from a different angle, yeah. There was a there was a tectonic plate shift uh that happened between seven and eight, and that's why you got mountains. Yeah. Interestingly enough, after part seven, which actually made money, it actually did fairly well. I think it was 19 against three. Um, they wanted to bring back Tina Shepherd against Jason and set it in a sane asylum. But like I said, Paramount Brass had a different idea. A former employee of Universal Studios, Rob Hedden, who had also done pieces of the Friday the 13th series, put together a screenplay where they were gonna get Jason out of Crystal Lake and into New York. And once again, on paper, conceptually, it should have been tremendous. In fact, there were scenes written, um, one on the Brooklyn Bridge, a boxing match in Madison Square Garden. Shiffley will get into the how that got altered. He'd go through Times Square, he'd go, he'd get himself involved in a Broadway play, and just like in Remo Williams, there was supposed to be a sequence where he was on top of the fucking Statue of Liberty.
SPEAKER_28That would have been dope. Yeah. That would have been really cool.
SPEAKER_19There was always gonna be two movies in one. The movie was always gonna start take place on a ship, at least the beginning, because we need to get him to New York. So writer-director Rob Hedden put both ideas together. Then the bean counter started coming in into the scene, and because of budgetary restrictions from Paramount, filming exclusively in New York City was just way more than the studio was willing to spend. So the budget shrunk and shrunk and shrunk till we got a movie that has ostensibly one major sequence in New York. The rest is shot in Vancouver, and the rest is shot on a boat. And this boat was docked in British Columbia, Canada, particularly by Vancouver. A lot of the alley we scenes were shot in Vancouver, shockingly enough. Like I said, very, very little of this film was on location.
SPEAKER_02I think those sets were borrowed from Cyborg.
SPEAKER_19Actually, you and I have had this conversation. Cyborg sets were actually uh borrowed from the failed Masters of the Universe 2. In fact, if it not for Mattel backing out and keeping Canon holding the purse strings, uh we may have never had a cyborg. You can thank Dolph Lundren for for cyborg.
SPEAKER_02Okay, thanks, Dolph. But you know what I mean. The these these New York, these New York sets, uh every in the 80s, every every set that was uh in New York that they built for any movie looked like this.
SPEAKER_19This completely dystopian down to the lighting and down to like the grimy wet walls, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The trash everywhere, the graffiti, the burned out cars. I mean, it's just crazy mattresses that people are yeah, I just it's it's nuts, man. But um before Jonathan gets started, I just want to do want to say one thing. The one voice that I think is really missing here is um Harry Manfredini, who apparently, you know, I don't know this, but I think he read the script and he said, I'm out. Makes sense.
SPEAKER_19Well, if I'm not mistaken, Fred Molin was a contemporary or a protege of Manfredini. It honestly, it probably came down to money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, probably. Um, probably.
SPEAKER_19I think I think this is the first film in the series not to feature Manfredini credited on the score. Um I will say this the opening titles, Darkest Side of the Night performed by Metropolis, is quite good.
SPEAKER_20A lot of people love this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_20A lot of people love this part.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you know guys, you guys know me. I'm not a fan of songs in movies, but are you a fan of bad acting? Sometimes.
SPEAKER_19I don't know how you guys feel, but I really don't like this cast. I do not like Jensen Daggett as the final girl. I think, once again, she has more chemistry with a roof shingle than she does with Scott Reeves, who shockingly enough is actually a replacement as the lead male. Peter Mark Richmond is the movie's villain, is annoying. I just I don't like this cast. I think the kills are real base level. They're real repetitive and simple. Rob Hedden was not a makeup effects guy. They're very uninspired and kind of tepid. Yeah. I think John and I just had this discussion recently. To me, Shiffley's idea might be a little different, but the first half of this on a boat is a fucking bore. It's this is shockingly enough, this is a boring movie. And I don't consider one or two to be boring, but this is a bore. It really is.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, Jonathan, what do you think about this movie? Alright.
SPEAKER_28Well, that's great. No, okay, so I'm gonna start with uh I agree with every everything Ben has said thus far. I think the first hour of this movie is a slog, it's uh really not memorable at all. The kills are terrible on the boat, nothing really happens, they're just you know, chasing killing a bunch of teenagers on a boat for an hour, but nothing special about it, no character development really to say. But I will say this I love the intro of this movie. Um I I'm a big fan of 1980s sleazy New York City. Just the vibe and the aesthetic is really interesting to me. And I think the intro of this movie captures it perfectly. So you have the band Metropolis opening with the darkest side of the night. You have the DJ from New York talking about everything, which is awesome. I I think that's a great way to continue with this trend of having some kind of a an opening narrative or you know, narrator uh dialogue going on.
SPEAKER_22It's like this we live in claustrophobia, a land of steel and concrete, trapped by dark waters. There is no escape, nor do we want it. We've come to thrive on it, and each other. You can't get the adrenaline pumping without the terror, good people. I love this town.
SPEAKER_28I don't have an issue with it at all. I actually think that the franchise needs more of these things to keep it interesting and fresh, because I think when you were getting to like four or five, you were getting really repetitive and it was getting kind of boring with the same ringsome repeat format. So when they come up with these new ideas, start adding music, start adding, you know, narrator at the beginning, things like that. I think it just makes the it pulls me in way, way easier.
SPEAKER_19That being said.
SPEAKER_28That being said, the boat ride is awful, right? So we'll we'll just go ahead and skip that because I think the last 30 minutes of this movie is what I enjoy a lot, and that's when they arrive in New York City. Now I will say this, and this is one of the similar things that Scream 6 suffered from, is that you're you're you're marketing a movie to take place in New York City, but there's really not a lot of memorable New York City moments. Short of Times Square, there's other sequences where you're like, I don't fucking know they're in New York City, they're in all these alleyways, they're you know in the sewer, like that kind of shit is I feel like that's a lost opportunity. They could have done more with what they had, right? And if you want to say this is Jason Takes Manhattan, then show me some more memorable sequences of New York City. You were mentioning that people at the time were pissed off because they thought the whole film was going to be in Manhattan.
SPEAKER_27Well, I mean, how how do you not think that when it's called Jason Takes Manhattan? Yeah. And I always said it was Jason Takes Manhattan eventually. It's a bait and switch, is what it is. It is.
SPEAKER_28Oh, yeah. Big it is. But I do think the the what they got is is well done. I love the I love the sequences on the subway. Thought that's really cool. Jason taking the syringe and killing one of the drug dealers with it, and just some of the stuff that they had. I love how it's shot. I love the capturing of just a dirty, nasty city alleyway. Yeah, it's dirty. Yeah, and I think that's the aesthetic I enjoy, and that's that's what made me enjoy this film at that point. Kane Hotter is still a badass. I don't have a problem with wet Jason. I know Ben doesn't like it, but I don't know. This dude's been in the bottom of a lake for like eight fucking movies. He's gotta be wet, right? Like at this point, he's moist, whatever, man.
SPEAKER_19And the best part, the best sponge. He never dries out. He never dries out.
SPEAKER_02I agree, Jonathan. I gotta tell you, I think there's a great movie here. If it would have just been realized a little differently, you know. I know budget was an issue, but I'm telling you, I just see what this could have been.
SPEAKER_28They had so many opportunities with this, like the diner scene. The diner is awesome. That's exactly what I envisioned an old sleazy 1980s diner to be, and then they go in there and they're like, there's a killer coming after us, and the fucking lady's like, Yeah, welcome to New York. That's fucking hilarious. That's great. They should have leaned into that more throughout this movie.
SPEAKER_19The uh the subway car sequence. Can you imagine if that subway car sequence would have been shot like De Palma shot the uh the one in Carlito's way? I know that's that's an odd that's odd to give it that level of ambition, but John's right. Just a lot of missed opportunities, and there were simple things to get. Even the boat stuff. There was a universe where I could see this entire film taking place on a boat, and honestly, you can make the argument maybe it should have, because then they would have put their money into just that instead of wasting it on faking us out with this one scene in Times Square.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Once they get to New York, I kind of wake up a little bit, you know, because yeah, I was dozing off. I think I've seen this movie. I think that may have been the third time I've seen it. And I gotta tell you, the boat is hard to watch three times.
SPEAKER_08I mean, it really watched once, yeah. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_02I'm trying to be a little charitable, all right?
SPEAKER_28No, it's it's rough, it's rough. It's it's it doesn't make a lot of sense that they would spend this much time in that one space, but maybe it was a budget thing. Maybe they didn't want to throw all their eggs in one basket the other way around. But if I'm a director and I'm making a Jason movie that's supposed to take place in New York, I'm going to fucking New York, man. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm gonna use every set piece I possibly have my hands on. There had to have been a way to do it, you know? Absolutely. I mean, this is paramount, you know? Like you guys have thrown money at this franchise for over a decade. Like, how do you not green light something more expensive?
SPEAKER_02And they've always made money. They've made money on every single film.
SPEAKER_19They made money on this movie. A lot of people think this was a box office bomb. It wasn't. This movie generated, I believe, almost three times its budget. Should we talk about how Jim's small boat gets from Crystal Lake to the Lazarus? How does Jason get from Crystal Lake to in an effort to board the Lazarus? Does anybody have uh because I gotta be honest, I I I don't have anything.
SPEAKER_02That's not a boat, that's a freaking ocean liner. You know, I I don't know what high school could afford to charter an ocean liner.
SPEAKER_19And that's the other thing. How did Jim's boat get on Crystal Lake? Uh anyway, I don't know, dude. Yeah, let's just say there's a small river. There's a small river that flows from Crystal Lake to Vancouver to to I guess the Atlantic Ocean.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it would have to be.
SPEAKER_19And then, yeah, but you're right.
SPEAKER_02And then down, yeah.
SPEAKER_19But based on the logic of the film, it have to there'd be a lake from Crystal Lake, which is technically in New Jersey or Connecticut, New Jersey, I believe, all the way to Canada, and then all the way back to New York. So wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on. So for them to To get to Vancouver to New York, did they have to go through the fucking Panama Canal?
SPEAKER_02It seems like it took that long. How long were they on this boat? Wow. It does seem like it.
SPEAKER_19Yeah. Maybe that's why the maybe that's why that first hour is so boring. Alright, sorry, John. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02But in the movie, so they go to the ocean, the Atlantic, and just hop on this gigantic ship. Okay. The Lazarus. The Lazarus, right? Good name. But I love this part at the beginning. When you see underwater, you see his mask there. It's all broken and everything. You can't use it. And then you've got that small boat with the boyfriend and the girlfriend, and we know they're gonna die. But he's telling the story, you know, telling the history and the legend of Jason just to scare his girlfriend. And then, of course, the uh you know, I guess at some point, a giant electrical cable was laid down, like right over Jason.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, optical cable, yeah.
SPEAKER_28Because they have so many street lights in Crystal Lake, you know, it's it's lit so well. This is a lake. What are they powering?
SPEAKER_19A lot of infrastructure. You know what they're powering? That condo development I was telling you about the original script for part seven. Oh, wait, wait. By the way, did you just say that at the bottom of the lake, the his mask is broken, correct?
SPEAKER_02Correct. I'm about to address that.
SPEAKER_19Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_20That's where I figured you were going.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Jason, Jason enters the boat, right? And the boyfriend does scare her with a Jason mask and a fake knife. Not a hockey mask. A Jason mask.
SPEAKER_20A Jason mask.
SPEAKER_02With the same slit on the top that he got in part three? Yep. What's going on here? Is someone selling novelty Jason masks? It has to be, right?
SPEAKER_28Well, yeah, I mean, Wikipedia says it's a hockey mask similar to Jason's old mask. It is similar. I mean, it's it's it's very similar, okay?
SPEAKER_02That's the point.
SPEAKER_28It's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02It's just one more of those things like don't ask questions. Don't ask questions. Yeah, exactly. Don't ask questions. We're too far past that. And don't ask questions about this. Thank you for this pin. Oh, Stephen King used it in high school. What the hell? How does she know that? Where'd she get Stephen King's pin? There's some weird stuff in this film, you know.
SPEAKER_28Well, I will say, um, I really do like the boxing match on top of the roof with the decapitations. Probably my best or my favorite kill of the movie because there's not a lot of great kills in this one either. Right. So it's kind of a uh continuation of part seven. Nothing good really happens until an hour into this movie. I think it's one of the best of the franchise.
SPEAKER_19It is, you know, yeah, I think it is. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Hold on. Let's go back up a second. How did Jim on his boat know about the knife slit from part three? How did he know to add that detail?
SPEAKER_28Well, he bought the mask, I think, like from a novelty shop, similar to how Michael Myers got his mask, you know.
SPEAKER_19But how would the novelty shop have known to do that?
SPEAKER_28Yeah. Well, it must have been in the script. I don't know. I mean, at this point, Jason's been around for decades. I'm sure someone's making money off of him in this uh universe.
SPEAKER_02There's just so many bizarre things that happen just to keep interest going or trying to on this boat. You've got the weird seduction thing and the biology from Uncle Charles and you know, just stuff like that.
SPEAKER_19By the way, if you pay attention to the opening scene when everyone's boarding the Lazarus, there is a fuckload of kids that get on that boat. And you can start counting them when they get to the first disco scene. So that means Jason killed a shitload of people on the boat.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, there's a bunch of them. And I mean a shitload. Still like 50 kids.
SPEAKER_03At least.
SPEAKER_02I guess no one missed the rocker chick at the beginning. She was killed right, I think, right when they're leaving the dock and never heard another thing about her.
SPEAKER_28That made me happy because she annoyed me. Yeah, I would hit her too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19By the way, this is a partial found footage movie because if you pay attention carefully, Wayne Weber is shooting video on board the ship and does catch Jason on his VHS camcorder. Now imagine for a second if Rob Hedden had a brain in his head and there was a whole sequence of that. That would have been great. Talk about ahead of its time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's one of the more effective times in the on the boat for sure. Jason is in full teleport mode in this thing. He teleports wherever he needs to be.
SPEAKER_20Especially on the boat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, and there's this one. Okay, so he's fighting this kid up on the top deck. The kid runs, climbs down the stairs, and he's right there. Right? So then he climbs up the mast and he's looking around, and Jason's right there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what happened later? Oh, and he throws um who's he throwing? He throws Uncle Charles through a window when they get to Manhattan, and he's down there already. And picks him up and sticks him in that barrel of already down. You know, I guess toxic waste that they're just laying around in New York, I guess. Hey man, that's New York. Yeah, it is. That's New York in the 80s, man.
SPEAKER_28I'm really toxic waste is everywhere.
SPEAKER_19It's really just a hellscape, honestly. I'm honestly glad he teleports because this movie is already I think this might be the longest in the franchise. This is a hundred minutes and it feels like three hours. Yeah.
SPEAKER_28It really does. Yeah, it does. I agree. And why is the why is the liege who keeps seeing like kid Jason?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_28Like all the fucking time.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. It's so stupid. It's got a who gives a shit attitude. The whole movie, you know? Oh, in terms of logic. Who gives a shit? Yeah. In terms of logic, yeah.
SPEAKER_19Yeah. Like Shiffly just said, there's supposed to be toxic waste apparently flowing under the city of New York every night.
SPEAKER_02At midnight.
SPEAKER_19At midnight. And then and then so basically what you're telling me is this the entire city is about to be dismantled by this toxic waste that is just rotting underneath it.
SPEAKER_28That's how they get rid of the homeless people, Ben. Yeah. It must be they just blunt the sewers with toxic waste and melt them all.
SPEAKER_19That's how that's how that's how that's how Coke was getting rid of crime in the 80s. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_28And I mean, let's I guess we'll just go to the end because there's not much more to talk about here. But the final showdown is is hilarious to me. The toxic waste. Um perfect symbolism of the toxic waste plan that is New York City. Even today, the place is a fucking hellscaped shithole. Yeah. But I love just the aesthetic of it. It was kind of weird. Maskless Jason is just really fucking awful here. Yeah, it's terrible. Terrible. Significant downgrade from the last one. And again, it was also weird that you know she sees Jason's body revert back to that child form at the end, just laying in the in the sewage. Yeah. None of it makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_19Why does he look like a Muppet? Did you guys notice that?
SPEAKER_28Oh, Jason. Looks like Kermit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19He's a Muppet when he takes off that mask.
SPEAKER_26Why are there so many songs about rainbows? And what's on the other side? Rainbows are vision. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's terrible.
SPEAKER_19And then the kid has hair? Have these people seen a Friday the 13th film?
SPEAKER_02It's wildly inconsistent, you know. In order just to go on with the film's logic, so she was tossed into Crystal Lake as a child, so her uncle could, you know, see if she could swim or teach her how to swim, right? And then Jason was down there and grabbed her, and now she's seen visions of him ever since. That's right, correct? Yes. And now she melts him, and what is that? Is that the ghost of the Jason that never died? I mean, I don't know, dude. But in this one, Jason did drown, I guess. Uh logic is all over the place in this franchise.
SPEAKER_19But so as far as Paramount is concerned, Paramount, who did eight movies on this character, that's the way they're gonna leave it.
SPEAKER_28Jeez. It's kind of like how Sam Raimi left Spider-Man 3. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19Talk about a studio that so that passive aggressively made it very, very obvious that they did not give a shit about their property anymore. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's too bad. I mean, it really is. This thing was there's a lot. This this franchise had a lot of fans, you know, and it still does.
SPEAKER_19Well, it still does. Yeah, it still does.
SPEAKER_02You know?
SPEAKER_19But I I do agree with what you said though. This is a lot of there is a better movie. There should have been a better movie here. I I would have just done one of two. Kept it on a boat or spent all of your time in a simplified version in New York.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just I would have trimmed everything that cost anything to get to New York. You know what I mean? I would have cut the cast in half, I would have cut salaries, I would have date it takes to uh give us the movie that was promised because it was promised. If you see the trailers, it promises that Jason goes to New York. You know?
SPEAKER_19Do you do you guys remember the marketing for this in the first part of 89 with the move of New York? Yeah, that was ab the f remember the first time the trailer hit for this? That was fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. You're talking about the trailer that was shot separately with him standing looking at New York, right? Yes, that cool music and all that. Yeah, yeah. It's great. It was great, man. I mean, even you know, I was like, oh man, no, I think everybody, when you saw that trailer, you're thinking, oh man, let's go. You know? But no. Sucks. This is what the subway guy, the the city worker says. I wrote, I wrote down his I wrote down his dialogue because I thought it was the single dumbest line in any of these movies. He says, We don't have a moment to spare. Toxic waste floods the place out every night at midnight. And they're like, okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Sounds good to me. We're not coming back here. We don't give a shit. That is the stupidest thing. Can you imagine reading that on the page? Someone approved that.
SPEAKER_19Hey, film critic Leonard Malton said this is the best in the series.
SPEAKER_02Leonard Malton was an idiot, by the way. Well, all those guys, you know, they're just they're not fans of this stuff. I mean, I wanna hey, you think Cisco Never liked it? No, come on. Oh man. I really do like the shot with the uh the gang members, the punks in the city where he comes and kicks the the boombox. I mean, that is pretty freaking cool. Wish the whole movie was filled with more moments like that. The subway, the diner. That's that's actually and honestly, pretty good stuff. Maybe maybe Friday the 13th was just was just played out. I mean, it's a great gimmick, the going to to New York, but after this many movies, though the people who really like these at teenagers, there's a they're adults now. The execution.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, the execution on this film was just uh anybody have a favorite kill?
SPEAKER_02Hey man, for me, Julius on the roof.
SPEAKER_19My guess is that all three of us are probably gonna say that. Because honestly, it's the only kill in the movie, realistically, that's inspired.
SPEAKER_28Yeah. Yeah. True. I think my my final words to this is like, I think this is two different movies, and I think if you can get rid of the first hour and sit down and watch the last half hour. I think it's great. I I think it's you know it holds up to any of the others.
SPEAKER_02I have no particular problem with it other than the the toxic waste in the sewer. Is that the best they could do? I'm still stuck on this. It's just not making sense. This is not making sense.
SPEAKER_19I still can't get over the the Jim's mask in the beginning of the film. Yeah. And how and how Jim's boat got to Vancouver, and then how the boat got from Vancouver to New York City. Maybe hey, you know what? I got it. It teleported. If Jason can teleport, why can't you vote? Yeah. Jason teleported the fucking boat. All right, we got it. Figured it out.
SPEAKER_02I have my second my second favorite line out of this movie. This is the line from uh Uncle Charles once they arrive on the island of Manhattan. We have to find the police. I think we'll be more productive if we split up. So stupid.
SPEAKER_20How'd that work out for you, Charles?
SPEAKER_02Alright, man. I got nothing else to say about this. Uh anybody else?
SPEAKER_19I did. I had one more thing. Oh, real quickly, I think somebody mentioned this earlier. The scene in the diner, uh, there's a big guy behind the um he confronts Jason. That's actually and then Jason launches him into the glass. That's actually Ken Kersinger who goes on to play Jason in Freddy vs. Jason.
SPEAKER_02Oh, no kidding. All right, cool. Are we moving on? I hope so. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12Jason Goes to Hell the Final Friday, 1993, directed by Adam Marcus. Budget 3 million, box office 15,900,000. I'm Robert Campbell.
SPEAKER_25For over 20 years, the mere mention of the name Jason Voorhees has been enough to send a shudder of fear to the hearts of an entire nation. He has been responsible for 83 confirmed murders and speculated scores of others.
SPEAKER_11I don't think so.
SPEAKER_10What do you think of as Jason? Not Jason. Body he's winning. It's just me. What does he want?
SPEAKER_11Same thing he wanted a motherfucker. Can't trust anyone.
SPEAKER_06I stabbed him with a fucker right to the heart and the son of a bitch still live.
SPEAKER_11He will always be in danger until Jesus and his dead. He won't stop coming for you until he's reborn. In a voyeuse was he born. Through a voye's may he be reborn.
SPEAKER_02Jason goes to hell. The final Friday. Uh well, Harry Manderfini is back. That's good news. Thank God. Yeah. Maybe he liked this script. I'm not sure I do, but uh he must have liked it. And Sean Cunningham is back. That's right. Yeah. Producer.
SPEAKER_20Not helping.
SPEAKER_02Well. Well, it's obvious they didn't want to make the same movie again. I mean, this is such a departure in so many ways. I think a lot of hardcore Friday fans probably rejected this more and more as the movie went on. But I was I don't know, man. I will say Aaron Gray is in this, and man, I had a the biggest crush on her from Buck Rogers when I was growing up. Buck Rogers. Oh yeah. Yeah, you're a Buck Rogers fan. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03I know some Buck Rogers.
SPEAKER_28Man. I don't know, Jonathan. What do you think about this one? Honestly, I don't have as much of a problem with it as so many people do. I think it takes a big swing, and I think it's a better, I guess a better take on like pretend Jason than like part five. So I do I do like the idea of Jason possessing people and they're killing people on his behalf, basically, but it does feel like a newline cinema movie, and I like the feel of it. You know, again, I was young in the 90s, and that was kind of like my introduction to horror. You know, I was six when this came out. I probably saw it on VHS a few years later, but it really feels like part of that time, and I do appreciate Newline trying to kind of reinvent or reinvigorate this franchise because I needed something to kickstart it. So I don't have a problem with it. I mean, I think that the opening sequence is kind of goofy at points, like when she lures Jason out and then like she does this somersault flip over the slot, and they just pop up and just blow the fuck out of them. But it's fun, it's fun. I don't know. At this point, I don't even take this franchise seriously. Yeah, it's like just make me entertained at this point. I'm not going in to watch a horror movie, I'm going in to watch something that I can eat popcorn and get high and just like have fun with. And this delivers that. Um, I don't know. I guess. Hey man, that gnarly ass, the the deep fryer kill is looking awesome. So, you know, I'll give them that kind of stuff. It's a gory movie, man. They they actually turn up the notch on gore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, isn't this Greg Nicotero? Isn't this Robert Kurtzman Greg Nicotero, I think, or in the and yeah, and those guys are good. I think the new line thing, yeah, this does have a different sensibility. It definitely feels like a 90s movie, not an 80s movie. Totally.
SPEAKER_20Oh, without question.
SPEAKER_02100%. Yeah. What about you, Ben? You fan?
SPEAKER_19Um, I hate this movie uh with the Fire of a Thousand Sons. Here's what here here's here's here's what's here's what's interesting. I don't hate this movie because it doesn't focus on physical Jason. I don't hate this movie because I think Adam Marcus is a jackass. I hate this movie because it's a ripoff of the 1987 Jack Shoulder movie, The Hidden. Have you guys ever seen The Hidden with Kyle McLaughlin and Michael Nurry?
SPEAKER_02You've talked about this before. You've told me this. This is pretty close, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_19It's identical. It's identical. And Marcus later acknowledged the his general concept similarity to that of The Hidden, although he stated he'd never seen the film at that time. Now Alan Marcus claims to be a horror movie expert. Oh I had seen The Hidden when it came out, and I was fucking 11. So that's bullshit. Anyway, uh I'm not a huge Evil Dead fan, uh, which is shocking because Sam Raimi's from my hometown of Detroit. But uh I think that Evil Dead fans like this movie and it's I think it's pretty obvious why. But this does not feel like a Friday the 13th movie. This feels like an Evil Dead movie. Yeah. I don't like John D. LeMay, but I do like Aaron Gray. I l a lot of fans praise Steven Williams and whatever the fuck he's doing.
SPEAKER_28The Friday series isn't your only foray into horror, of course. Uh, having appeared in X-Files, the supernatural.
SPEAKER_00What attracts you as a performer to the world of horror? A paycheck, man. What the hell do you think attracts any actor? I'm not fond of any particular genre. Yeah, I am fond of rift. You know what I'm saying? Gas bill, light bill, phone bill, insurance. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19This is just a mess of a movie. It's a fucking mess. I will say this, John Shiffley. For the first time, I I'm gonna go on the record and saying I actually dislike part eight more than this one. Okay. Because I agree with you. This is so puzzling, I'm rarely bored. I'm bored in eight. I'm not bored in part nine.
SPEAKER_28Well, that's the thing. Like at this point, I'm so detached from anything original and anything that even resembles like a slasher movie. They've taken this franchise every possible direction you can take it. I mean, it's probably one of the more ambitious franchises out there. Like some of the others are just rinse and repeat the whole time. This one, I feel like every two movies they try something different. So I'll give them the the props for where they've done it, but they've kind of exhausted everything at this point. So where do you go? I do kind of like, I mean, I'm an Evil Dead fan. I do kind of like the idea that this has a connection to the Evil Dead and how Necronomicon lore is brought into this, but I don't know. I'm I'm entertaining the whole movie. Whether or not it's good, I don't really care anymore.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's some good there's some good things in it, Jonathan. I mean, I mean, there's some interesting things in it that I that I do like. I I actually kind of do like the way it starts out. And I do like the lore that now everybody knows who Jason is, you know, to the point where the government wants to study him.
SPEAKER_19Yes, that makes perfect sense, actually.
SPEAKER_28And that's that's why like we're at the point where we're at where like this is the next logical step, right? And that's why I think Jason X works so well. Obviously, if there was a killer who survived decades and decades and has gotten cut, stabbed, drowned, blown up, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he survives. Like, wouldn't everyone be trying to study this specimen and figure out what the fuck is going on here?
SPEAKER_19Even director David Cronenberg.
SPEAKER_02But uh, this is such a departure. Um, I I don't know why why make a big deal out of the federal morgue being in Youngstown, Ohio. Well, let me go back up. The chick at the beginning, the uh the undercover, you know, assignment. Um I don't know what kind of assignment this is that requires you to get naked and take a shower. You know? It's the it's a fucking hot. Simon is what it is.
SPEAKER_19Oh, you're talking about you're talking about the agent at the beginning. I think that's I think that's Julie Michaels, if I'm not mistaken.
SPEAKER_02I so I guess Jason, but this point they figured that's just what he's drawn to, right? Like he's a pervert. Yeah, it's gotta be. It's gotta be. What what else makes sense? You know, I I don't know. But I do like the action beat, you know, at the beginning. That's a lot of firepower. I mean, they did a really good job on that, and that was kind of new, you know, that he's up against, you know, the military or whatever.
SPEAKER_28I think Robert Kurtzman also worked on this movie, and he because he's gone, he's had some cool interviews about the kid the opening explosion sequence. Yeah. And how they built the the body double and everything.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, this is Al uh Magnachetti, and I think all of K and B. And you can tell, especially that 10th sequence, which was clearly a pickup. Thank God they shot that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's some good stuff in this. I'm not saying there's not, but I think once they get the body to the corner and then the corner eats the heart, I think that's kind of where the division starts, where the the core fans are uncertain about that. You know, when you realize what's happening. And it it did throw me off, I'll be honest. So, you know, when I first time I saw this, it was such a departure from what I was used to that uh I wasn't sure how I felt about it. I'll be honest. Well, how do you feel now? About the same. No, it's fine. It's fine now. I it this does have a kind of a cool sense of humor. I like that little bit where when the coroner is possessed by the spirit of Jason and he goes out in the hallway and you've got uh Kane Hotter in a cameo there with the other guard. That's you know, yeah, it's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_20Very meta.
SPEAKER_02And uh he's like, uh, you know, um obviously everyone in the country knows who Jason is. They got TV shows on him now, right? Kane Hotter says something smart to the guy, you know, and then he turns around, and then next he cut to the news sequence again. He's like, two guards dead.
SPEAKER_20He goes, he goes, Jason ain't nothing but a big old pussy, and then he's killed as a result.
SPEAKER_02Right. That's it's cute, yeah. I'm with you on the uh the Crichton Duke character with that big ass hat. I don't know what to make of him either. It leads you to believe that there's some history between the two, but I as far as I can tell, it's never really tells you. But then it really doesn't matter. Yeah, exactly. Right. It's uh it's one of those things where a scene was cut in a movie and later on someone says, Do you remember me? And no. We don't remember you.
SPEAKER_28I do I do think it's really interesting that this is the first time they don't use Friday the 13th in the title, the movie.
SPEAKER_19They're definitely making a break from the franchise in like every way. Well, especially when it turns in terms of owning the IP. I've read several times that so Paramount negotiates with Newline over the rights. Now they grant Newline Cinema the right to the Jason Voorhees character, and I should shoot not, they forgot to give them the Friday the 13th title, which is why this is called Jason Goes to Hell the Final Friday, not Friday the 13th. Yeah. And here's what's interesting. So they knew that they wanted to do a Freddy vs. Jason movie with Paramount, I think, handling domestic and new line handling international, but they just hadn't figured out how to do the split. So they knew it was coming, right? But then I don't understand why they co-opted Evil Dead. Now, I've also read that Adam Marcus' original pitch was Elias Voorhees digging up his son's body, which makes no sense, by the way, because he's still in New York. Although this movie, I'm assuming, would ignore the events of Jason takes Manhattan. So he he digs up his body, presumably at the end of six or seven, eats his heart, takes on his supernatural powers, and embarks on a killing spree of his own. That would have worked. I don't think this worked in '93. I don't think it works now. I will I do agree with Shiftly and that it's a swing and there is some ambition here, but come on, man. You can't you can't call it the Final Friday when Jason's only in your movie for like what?
SPEAKER_02Two scenes? And they've just created a whole entirely different lore for the franchise. You know, only a Voorhees can kill a boy.
SPEAKER_20What? That makes no sense.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_20You can tell they're a grassman at straws, all right.
SPEAKER_02I love the line from Duke when uh uh homeboy runs in and says, uh, you know, get your hands off my lady. And he goes, She's only your lady because she hasn't gotten a taste of the Duke yet. Oh my god, that's just I'm glad you like this, Chiffley. Uh like I said, it it is completely different. The Evil Dead thing, you guys noticed when they found the Necronomicon in the uh the house. Yeah, you know that's just the Evil Dead DVD special edition. Because I have it. It's right here. The exact same thing. They didn't change anything. When you open it up, it's the same thing. They just took the DVD and just turned it in this book. It's crazy. That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_19Wait, can we go back to Creighton Duke for a second? Yeah, that's all right. There's one line. Once again, this is how strange this movie is. All right, don't quote me. I'm pretty sure certain this is this is close. So Robert Campbell says to Duke, he goes, I'm gonna say two words to you, Mr.
SPEAKER_25Duke, and I want you to say the first thing that comes to your mind.
SPEAKER_19Okay? Okay.
SPEAKER_25You ready?
SPEAKER_09Jason Forte. Well that makes me think of a little girl in a pink dress sticking a hot dog through a donut.
SPEAKER_19I should you're not. That is a line that somebody wrote in this film.
SPEAKER_02It is.
SPEAKER_20Oh man. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there are nods to the uh the rest of the franchise. It in, you know, just in spirit, like when the couple are getting killed in the tent and all that, and you know, the chick once, you know, he he says he doesn't like condoms and she just tosses the condom away. And you I mean, that's a death sentence. That is a death sentence in a Friday movie.
SPEAKER_20In a Friday movie? Oh yeah. No premarital sex.
SPEAKER_02I was disappointed that Aaron Gray wasn't in this more. I mean, I remember when I first saw this when I was younger, I really thought she was like the lead. Well, no. But uh, you know what I mean? I was like, damn, she's she's a legit actress. I mean, I don't know. Maybe they couldn't pay what she, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have any answers. But when that little worm creature or whatever that thing is, uh scoots up her crotch, you know, later.
SPEAKER_20That's just you know gross.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was I was kind of jealous. I was kind of jealous, though. You curve. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_19Here's the other you know, here's the other problem. I really don't like this cast. Honestly, I'm I'm not I think Steven Williams is just too weird to be likable. My favorite is the sheriff, played by Billy Greenbush. Oh, okay. That's how strange this cast is. I I just can't say much about it.
SPEAKER_02I have a question. This is for you, Shiffly, since you love this movie. So when Jason in a different form, he kidnaps the deputy from the diner and then ties him down, is gonna transfer his essence into this guy. I know what you're talking about. I know you do. Why does he give him a shave before doing the transfer? I mean, I would. Okay, good enough. Good enough. I'm with you. That's all I gotta say. Here's why.
SPEAKER_20Here's why. There's a condo development being made on Crystal Lake, and to get approved for a lease, you have to be clean shaven.
SPEAKER_02Is it I mean, the only the only thing that makes sense is this that Voorhees does not like beards. Is there any other explanation?
SPEAKER_19There's another explanation. Okay, good. What is it? This movie was made by people on drugs. I've read more than once, by the way, that Cunningham reshot about half of this movie. Really? And that's why it feels so disjointed. That's why you've got ideas from both filmmakers. Huh. I've always felt it was incredibly disjointed. It's not as choppy as seven, nor is it just indistinguishably terrible as is eight, but it is disjointed. You get a lot of ideas, and I'll give it that. Shifley's right. This movie does have ideas. Right. They're nonsensical, but you know, they are ambitious.
SPEAKER_28There's actually a really uh pretty long Reddit thread on this topic right now. Well, yeah, there's quite a few people throwing in there, uh you know, one of them was like, well, Jason's just a classy guy. You know.
SPEAKER_20Um I like my condo theory, butter. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think by the time that we realized Jason has a sister or had a sister, I think all of the remaining core Jason fans just dropped off right there. You know what I mean? I cannot believe they had the gall to go down that road.
SPEAKER_19Well, this was it for eight years. You know, there's a reason. Um even though Jason X, I think, was shot in 2000 but wasn't released until 2001, if I'm not mistaken. Or no, sorry, April tw April 2002, but I believe it was shot in 2000. But yeah, that's the reason. You're right. I don't think this movie died completely on the Vine. Um, this was not a box office bomb, but I guarantee its box office results were not with what Newland was expecting. This was supposed to be it, man. This was the final film in the in the franchise, supposedly, even though we everyone knew that was bullshit.
SPEAKER_02Right. I just reject the mythology just outright.
SPEAKER_19It's disrespectful, honestly, because it is creation. It is. Yeah. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's come on, I have a soft spot for Jason. He's given me so much pleasure over the years. He's killed so many people, just for me.
SPEAKER_02What is the Jason Lizard? I know what the Jesus lizard is. Yeah, yeah, we know what that is. What is the Jason lizard? Um Is it his soul? What the hell is going on here? Uh you know what? Did they even make that clear in the film? I didn't catch it. If they did, I missed it.
SPEAKER_19Oh, I know what it is. The lizard. The lizard is the it's it's uh it's his heart. His heart becomes a demon, which manifests in that thing.
SPEAKER_28Okay. I think they just had some some budget to throw around and they wanted to make something look cool.
SPEAKER_19They wanted to make, by the way, once again, that also rips off the hidden. I think they just wanted to make a device that entered Diana, which, like I said, it's so gross and distasteful. But that's what it is. It's the physical manifestation of Jason's heart. Of Jason's heart. It's a demon now. Okay. Does that make sense? No.
SPEAKER_02Well, see, that's the thing. The heart was a demon. All right, so now you're bringing demonology into the thing. Yes. Exactly, right?
SPEAKER_19Which is in keeping with the Necronomicon and all the evil dead. Hey John, does it sound like does it sound like I'm making this shit up as we go along? Aren't we all? Because that's exactly what the writers did.
SPEAKER_28Adam Marcus goes on the record in 2017 and he said that in his opinion, Jason Voorhees is a deade.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I've read that. I've heard that before too. So I think at this point anything's impossible. When uh Duke says, Son of a bitch, you remember me? Well, no. When? How how? Yeah. Where? What?
SPEAKER_20What is happening? No, we don't. Help.
SPEAKER_02Throw me a bone, man.
SPEAKER_19Throw me a pink girl uh putting a hot dog through a donut. Right. I do agree. I do agree with Shiffly. I love the opening sequence of this movie. And that's it. But at least I love one scene.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. This franchise has become uh almost as inconsistent as the Halloween franchise. You know, where you can start picking episodes you want to watch for different timelines and whatnot, you know. Correct. Yeah. I mean, I I guess hey, it's their movie. You know, it's not our movie.
SPEAKER_19It could have been worse. I mean, it I don't know how, but it it could have been, you know. Like John said, at least, at the very least, they're trying to turn a page on the Paramount series and add some some new life to this franchise, which had been going on since at this point, 13 fucking years.
SPEAKER_02Right. If this had been a hit, I wonder where they would have taken it next. Well, obviously the end, when you see the the Jason Glove, I guess that was I guess that's where I guess they went, you know, I guess we know where it went next, but you know, I mean, all the mythology that this built up, I wonder if that was something that uh that they were thinking about long term. You know, or I don't know if this franchise ever thought about anything long term, but you know, whatever. You know what's interesting?
SPEAKER_19I obviously by the time we get to the mid the early 90s, the slasher craze had died, right? And Paramount and New Line were considering doing uh a crossover. Now, this film was a box office disappointment, but the next year we get Wes Craven's New Nightmare. Now, that movie doesn't make a shellacking at the box office, it makes a little more than twice its budget. I'm really surprised we had to wait uh almost a decade to get Freddie versus Jason. I mean, were they did they wait on purpose, or did they just do they can just not make a deal?
SPEAKER_02It's probably a rights issue between the two studios, you know, trying to iron out who gets what, who's gonna handle what. I don't know. I I guess there's some fans for this film.
SPEAKER_19This movie does feel like it's got two filmmakers working against each other. Every other scene has a has a tone shift. It's it's it's just a strange way to make a film, and it that's one of the reasons I don't think it works.
SPEAKER_02I'm just looking up uh Adam Marcus's a little bit of information on him.
SPEAKER_19I think he was 21 when they started shooting this. That is what I'm saying. Yeah, I was gonna say he looks young.
SPEAKER_02Way too young. He did Texas Chainsaw 3D too, which is also a disappointment. Whatever. But uh I'm glad you like this one, Jonathan. It's uh it's different. This does not have to be a Friday the 13th movie, that's for sure. They could have literally just strapped on a different title and it really wouldn't have changed anything.
SPEAKER_28Totally. I mean, I think again, I think it it does match the the new line cinema aesthetic of this time. Yeah, it does. It was cool to see something different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this kind of ambitious storytelling that they were trying to do.
SPEAKER_19Army of Darkness 2 is what I like to call this. Oh, yeah, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Boy, I tell you, man, what a whiplash in like 90, 91, 92, man. Movies changed like incredibly fast over just a few years. Really?
SPEAKER_20Not necessarily for the better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_20Yeah, we covered that before, yeah. Not necessarily for the better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_20But they did change. You're right about that.
SPEAKER_02Do you think it was brave of them to go ahead and put the Freddy glove pulling the mask down, even if they didn't have the rights settled? I mean, a lot of people really could have got pissed if that movie didn't happen, you know?
SPEAKER_19I think a lot of people are still pissed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I still think it's cool.
SPEAKER_19Oh, it's a great ending. I remember watching this in theaters, and people were hooting and hollering when that happened. Should we do a counter and see where we're at? Because we've now finished the Paramount series.
SPEAKER_02No, let's probably wait to the end. My list has changed substantially now that I've watched all these.
SPEAKER_19Oh, really? I'd like to see your list before you started this series uh and compare it to the new list. I don't know if you do.
SPEAKER_12Jason X 2001, directed by James Isaac. Budget 11 million, Box Office 17 million.
SPEAKER_18I don't think he's not there.
SPEAKER_02All right, gentlemen, Jason X. You know, all roads have led us uh to this point, one of Jonathan's favorite movies. So why don't you tell us about this movie, Jonathan? Jason X.
SPEAKER_28What is there to tell about this movie that hasn't already been told? This is one of my favorite installments in the franchise. And I've told this to many people, but you know, I'll tell you here. I think it is exactly where this franchise needed to go. As preposterous as these installments continue to get, this one finally kind of leans into it full force. Right. Right. You know, Jason X takes place years after Jason goes to hell. At this point, Jason Voorhees has been captured and he's been contained at the Crystal Lake Research Facility. So this camp is who knew uh some kind of uh government headquarters for doing experiments on Jason, and apparently they've tried to execute him multiple times, all unsuccessful. And now the government wants to get involved and take him to another place, relocate him to uh kind of understand like his regeneration, which I think is really interesting. And this is kind of exactly how I think if there really was a serial killer like Jason Borhees in real life, I I feel like this is what would happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, I've got no particular problem with it. Before we go on though, I really like the opening title sequence. Oh, yeah. Because it is, it's like during the experimentation, you see the the DNA, you see the blood, uh, you see from Jason's POV, you see the doctors looking at him. It's like just a really cool little short intro to what you know what's happening to him in the lab, basically. Which I thought was kind of neat. I although I do miss the simplicity of the paramount titles, just the white titles over black. I do kind of miss that, but I understand, you know, Loon Lions doing their own thing. I do like that opening title sequence quite a bit. I think it's pretty neat.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this, again, this is kind of going in that next direction. It's trying to separate itself enough from the rest of the franchise, which I think it does a really good job of. But, you know, basically at this point, when the military tries to relocate Jason, it takes, you know, everything kind of goes to hell exactly how you would expect it to go. And then uh basically Jason is locked into a cryogenically frozen chamber and then is frozen for 400 years. And then we have to fast forward 400 years to inevitably Earth is this desolate hellscape of a of a place, and a spaceship finds Jason along with the female that that encapsulated him, and they've been frozen for 400 years, saw him out, now they're on a spaceship. But yeah, I mean, Jason going to space is uh again, in in my opinion, kind of the the next step. If you're gonna keep getting fucking loony with this franchise, take him to space, man. Like, why wouldn't you? How about you, Ben?
SPEAKER_19What do you think of this installment? Here's something interesting I read. One of my biggest problems with this movie, and I doubt anyone will disagree, is it's a sci-fi movie. And by sci-fi, I don't mean science fiction, I mean sci-fi channel.
SPEAKER_28Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_19It's it's cheap looking, almost as cheap as part seven, but uh you can tell there's just people running around screaming on sound stages. But here's the part that's interesting. This film, and granted, I realize that there's a discrepancy in the amount of years between the two films, this has the exact same budget as Ridley Scott's Alien.
SPEAKER_28You don't think this looks as good? Oh man. Wait, wait, come on, man. You gotta like the guys who designed the spaceships in this movie. Come on. Come on now.
SPEAKER_19I do like the look of Uber Jason. Outside of that, the special effects in this, oh boy. They are so early 2000s.
SPEAKER_28But I think this is I think this is the point, though. I don't think this movie tries to be serious, and I don't think this movie tries to not at all be what you know what I'm saying? Like yeah, I think it's purposefully cheap, and I think it's made this way for a reason.
SPEAKER_02Uh it's hard, it's hard to say. It's hard to say. I do agree with Ben that it is kind of a cheap-looking movie. I don't know if it was that's intentional, but I think the self-referential nature of it is certainly intentional. I I do think that it is making fun of itself. I do kind of like this movie. This actually was kind of a box office disappointment, but it certainly made up. What I read was this made three times its budget just in DVD sales. So I guess this was that age when uh physical media was probably at its prime.
SPEAKER_19I believe this was the first film trailer I downloaded off the internet in late 2001. Yeah. And let me tell you something that was not a brisk affair. That took a while. Well, one of the things I noticed on the rewatch a couple days ago is there actually are some clever sci-fi Easter eggs. For example, the space station that the ship blows up is called the Solaris. Yes. I thought that was pretty clever. There are some admittedly creative deaths in this. Everyone, of course, loves the liquid nitrogen death.
SPEAKER_02There's some pretty brutal stuff in here.
SPEAKER_28Oh yeah, he's ruthless.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he really is. I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_19Once again, the movie pokes fun of itself, but it always takes Jason seriously. He's always a problem. He's a menace, as usual.
SPEAKER_02He's dangerous. I think the key to liking these movies is that for older fans, like Ben and myself, we just have to realize that this is no longer your daddy's Friday the 13th. You know, it just isn't. It's just not that thing. It's a totally different thing now. For younger people, maybe this is their Jason. You know, I hate to say that, but and that's unfortunate, but it could be of a certain age, this is your Jason, you know.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I mean, I think at least Kane Hodder is my is my personal favorite Jason. And and I think you know, my generation would would probably agree to that. We we get even more preposterous in the next one, I think, uh, in some cases, but sure. I think with this one, you know, they do a really good job though. I I get it, it's it's fake, but like the science makes sense with the nano technology and like the regeneration stuff. I I think that was done well. You know, what's funny about this, and and upon rewatch, I I kind of realized like this is basically just the script of aliens. Yes. It's like a comedic version of it, right? Because this this script is a comedy. Let's face it. It is. But you got Jason on this on this ship, and then you've got the guy who's trying to smuggle him back for monetary purposes, right? Right. And then when he goes loose, you got like the colonial marines for some reason just come into play. Yep. Right? So then it's colonial marines versus Jason. And I forgot that had the the B-rate Tony Todd in this movie. I called him uh Timu Todd when I was watching it. Peter Peter Mensah. He's the best part of this, I think. But I just kept the whole the whole movie. I'm like, man, they should have just got fucking Tony Todd. Like, this guy's playing the exact part.
SPEAKER_02Sergeant Brodsky. He is my favorite. He he's my favorite.
SPEAKER_19He's a British actor with a Polish surname. That makes perfect sense. Whatever.
SPEAKER_28But you are right, you know, uh as far as like some of the some of the things that I think this film suffers from, very similar to Jason Takes Manhattan. You know, you don't see Uber Jason until an hour and ten minutes into this movie. Third act, yeah. And you only get him for like five minutes, really. Like he only has five minutes on screen, and then after that he punches through the hull of the ship and then he's in space, and it's even more fucking stupid. But still, you know, when you look at the movie poster, I mean, like, you're expecting this Uber Jason for what I would expect most of the movie. Yeah, and you really don't get him till the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but it's it's he's still cool though, as I don't know what you call him, old man Jason. I don't know what you call him. Old man, yeah, thought thought out Jason. Stofer's Stoffer's Jason, I guess. Stoffer's Jason. Yeah. It's good to know that in 400 years in the future, uh, people are still just as stupid as they are now, because these are some of the stupidest characters yet in this franchise.
SPEAKER_20And that's uh that's a low bar.
SPEAKER_28Even even when they do the hologram of of Camp Crystal Lake with the girls drinking and like the the dialogue right there where they're talking about drinking and smoking pot and premarital sex, and it's like yeah. You know what this is. Yeah, yeah, you know what it is.
SPEAKER_19Do you want to have premarital sex with us?
SPEAKER_28And let's let's talk about the physics of the ship for a minute because like they they throw about a thousand rounds of ammunition into the the walls of this ship and nothing happened. They don't breach the hall, but then Jason just punches through it at the end and everything just gets sucked out. Oh, yeah, it's like tinfoil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is which makes sense because the set was literally probably tinfoil. This is an interesting thing. I found this note which I thought it was cool about the production. I mean, the movie was shot on 35mm, but it was transferred to high definition to aid the uh the visual effects. Because of course that's the way you do it. You have to transfer ever film into digital space to do the effects. But this was the first feature-length film ever to be completed digitally. So if nothing else, that's kind of cool. That is cool. I didn't know that. You mean the edit? The final version was digital. And then if they had to print it back out to film for theaters, I guess that's what they did.
SPEAKER_19I see what you're saying. They took the camera interpositive and dumped it into the show. Okay. I wonder if I I I I I suspect then let's see, what year are we at? I believe this was actually shot in 2000, but not released until 2002, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. So I wonder if this was actually cut on Avid or I'm sure it was. One of the FCP betas. Who knows? Avid was um yeah, I think that's what everybody was using at the time. You guys uh you guys want to hear the Roger Ebert review? Oh, I'd love to. It actually, I think it got an upgrade uh uh from the prior installment. Roger Ebert gave the film 0.5 stars out of four, and the quote is this sucks on many levels.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I I'm just sorry. I know we keep saying this, but he is just not in the mindset of the fan base of the film. It just these people just aren't. They're they're un I'll tell you what, they're unqualified to rate these films. That's how I feel about some of these critics. They're unqualified.
SPEAKER_28It is pretty ridiculous that like they're trying to take any of this seriously. You know what I mean? Right. It's all about how you watch it. Like, I could do the same thing. I could go watch a foreign film and be like, man, this is fucking boring as shit. You know? But I'm also not the right person to review a foreign film. Exactly. I have no business, I have no business watching a French movie. I don't. Yeah. Because I'm gonna sit there and be like, this fucking sucks. I hate it. Yeah, it's not for you. Yeah. But I don't know anything about it, so that's not my place, right? And the same thing goes for them. They have no business talking about this genre in the way that they're talking about it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I we'll throw this out there. How much sex is going on on this ship? A lot, apparently. A lot. Yeah. Well, you got the kinky, you got the kinky professor who just gives out A pluses to his students can twist his nipples.
SPEAKER_20That's right.
SPEAKER_02I just noticed that. I'm like, I it I know it's set 400 years in the future, but maybe they're making some commentary that just people will not change. We're still humans no matter what year it is.
SPEAKER_19Oh, they still make stupid decisions. The physics and logic of the universe we find ourselves in make no sense.
SPEAKER_02I do like the kills in this. I think they're kind of fun. It does have one of the best uh neck snaps that I think I've seen on film, and you guys know what I'm talking about. Where Jason has that guy, man, and just it just looks brutal, and that sound effect is awesome. I remember when I first saw this, the first time in that one soldier he knocks down and falls on that that screw device. I don't know what that thing, some kind of drill device, and then he's slowly spinning down it. And didn't you guys just know that someone was gonna say he's screwed?
SPEAKER_19I went to see this in I went to see this in theaters opening night, and there was a guy, a row, maybe two behind me, that said, You're screwed, and the entire fucking theater died. Yeah. As much as I dislike this movie, I will give it this. I have been to a lot of movies in the theater over the years, and I would put Jason X in my I shit you not my top five, because that was a fucking blast. And that means something.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's what this is meant to be.
SPEAKER_28Exactly.
SPEAKER_02That this is a blast. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, they're making it for an audience, just like the audience that you were with, Ben. And whether the movie's good or not, it sometimes it's just secondary to how much fun you have when you're watching it. That's completely irrelevant.
SPEAKER_19My favorite in the series is preposterous. Yeah. One of the stupidest movies ever made.
SPEAKER_28So no, I that part I absolutely understand. Well, and that's the thing with me, like, and that's what I've kind of I guess come to realize re-watching this entire thing, is that if I had the opportunity to see any of these movies in theaters, like which ones would I want to see? And and it's easily gonna be like, you know, Jason 3, right? Yeah, like in 3D at a midnight showing. That's what I would rather go see. I can be myself, I can laugh, I can yell, I can be, you know, a dumbass and and have fun with it.
SPEAKER_19I would watch any of them in the theater, honestly, but the best the best one to see in a theater, if if it's a s if it's a true stereoscopic screening with the glasses, if you get a chance, and trust me, I'll let you know is part three. That's the one you want to see in theaters.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, I'm not gonna hold my breath. I don't know. I mean, it would be nice if someone did that. They do them once in a while. There's a few lines in this that I really like that are they're legitimately funny. Like uh, like when uh Sergeant Brodsky's taking on Jason and you know Jason stabs him, and he's like, Oh, you know, it'll take more than a poke in the ribs to put this old dog down. Yeah. Then he stabs him again. Yep, that should do it. That should do it.
SPEAKER_28I mean, there's some funny, there's funny things in this. Well, it's also so funny that like Rowan is like at the beginning of this film running from Jason, and then she just knows how to like cock a shotgun with one hand. Yeah. Like an action hero, just like and then just starts blowing his ass away. Like it's just, I don't know. I thought you were this like scholar, you know. You're the expert on this guy.
SPEAKER_04Roger Ebert was paying attention because Janessa in this movie, her quote is and that was Ebert's quote.
SPEAKER_20So he was paying attention.
SPEAKER_02Right. He should stick to movies that he understands. Boy, Jason's death count went up on this, didn't it? When he destroyed the Solaris, that his death count must have been up to 50,000. You know? Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_19It's the highest in the series. Yeah. He blows up and he destroys an entire space station.
SPEAKER_02Before he's even thought out, he chops that guy's arm off. You know what? It's yeah, I I I'm kind of with you, Jonathan. I do like this movie. It's just not the Friday the 13th that I grew up on. You know, I just have to understand that.
SPEAKER_28That's all. Well, the tagline of this movie was evil gets an upgrade. Yeah. You know, like they're not even taking this seriously at all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_28This is just go watch a popcorn movie and watch a bunch of people get fucking killed in fun ways.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I was getting confused about who is who. Everybody looked the same. You know, except for KM, the android, which is kind of a cool addition. I think that's kind of neat.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I didn't have a problem with it. I actually thought it was kind of funny when she like went all John Wick, you know? Yeah. Just like shows up with the machine guns. Right.
SPEAKER_02The the bullet belts across your body, like can we at least once see a space movie where the hole is not breached and everybody has to hold on while the atmosphere flies out of the hole? Nope. Can we just watch it one time? Just one time.
SPEAKER_28And they wasted an opportunity here when that girl got sucked out of the hole. Like, man, if they could have pulled that off, having her get sucked through that hole and have like almost like a Sabini style gore effect, that would have been cool.
SPEAKER_19They had $14 million.
SPEAKER_02They had a lot for this. I don't know where it went. They could have done the Alien 4 thing where you're outside the ship and you see all the blood and gore just flying out into space, something like that. But it's fine.
SPEAKER_28I'm not gonna second guess them. They wasted that on Timu Todd and and and Uber Jason doing the shooting star across Camp Crystal Lake.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I'll tell you this. When I first saw this trailer way back in the day, and I didn't know anything about it, I did know that they were making some kind of cybernetic Jason. And then there was a shot in the trailer where I know I now know it's Brodsky and Jason facing off, walking uh toward each other. And the shot was so quick that for a second I thought it was old Jason versus new Jason, and I I was super excited about that. You know what I mean? Oh, that would have been cool. That's like Godzilla versus Mecha Godzilla. Exactly. No, and I was like, man, that would have been awesome. Oh, and here's another thing. Just one time I'd like to see a space movie where somebody doesn't have to hotwire a door because it doesn't open.
SPEAKER_20Oh, that's I hate that.
SPEAKER_02I'll do an override. It almost has to be there. You know, you have to have that. We need someone doing a spacewalk. We need, you know, there's like a list that has to be checked off for these science fiction uh movies.
SPEAKER_19I believe that the trailer, I believe that Dan uh Lafontaine did all of them up until this film. I'm not sure if he was when did he die? Oh eight? Yeah. I don't know if he did the trailer voiceover for Freddie vs. Jason. Let me look that up. But I know he went I think he did all the Paramount films and the first new line entry. Yeah. Because I I do remember liking that trailer way more than I liked the movie.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the trailer was good. I did find this a little bit about production. Apparently, the casting director, Robin Cook, and James Isaac, the director, they really did not want to have the campers naked in the virtual reality thing. Um, Cook was so adamant that the scene was just gratuitous nudity, and she refused to cast the roles. And I'm thinking, that's exactly what it is. Has she ever seen is she familiar with this franchise at all? I don't I sometimes wonder. Here's where Todd Farmer, the writer, he does understand it, right? He knows exactly what these movies are and what they're making fun of. You know, exactly. I mean, even the director said he didn't want to do it because it was just nudity for nudity's sake. And that is the point in these films. Of course it's nudity for nudity's sake. That's what it is, and Todd Farmer knew that. But I guess this was, you know, 2000, so I guess things were changing, you know, but the two actresses had no problem with it. I don't know. I just thought that was interesting the way society views things and how things change. It is interesting. Can we talk about that uh hologram scene for a minute? Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_18Hey, you want a beer? Or do you want to smoke some pot? Or we can have premarital sex.
SPEAKER_02That's probably the best thing about the movie. Don't you think?
SPEAKER_19I I love how they rip off the sleeping bag kill from part seven. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was fun. That was cool.
SPEAKER_19They don't even try to hide it. They're like, you know what, this was a fan favorite, let's do it again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, I think fans of the series really appreciated that entire sequence. The the call back to what the series used to be about. The roots. I I think it's neat. I'm glad that they put that in there for uh the people who would remember.
SPEAKER_28No, this came out when I was a freshman in high school, man.
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, see, see, that that's the perfect age for something like this.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I I remember renting this at Blockbuster. That's when I I didn't see it in theaters. I watched it, you know, on VHS, but but still we're the right age.
SPEAKER_02And I I do like the way it ends with Brodsky writing Jason Down to the Planet. I I do kind of dig it. And the the open end with the you know, the two teenagers, oh, a falling star, oh it landed in the lake. Let's go check it out, you know? I mean, it's it's it's cool. Yeah, honestly, I don't really have much of a problem with the film. I I really don't. I I know that purists might, but you know, I mean, what are purists holding on to anyway? I mean, it's not like these things are cinematic gold, you know, they're just they're just good time exploitation horror films, you know? So I don't mind this one. I gotta be honest. But I I do like Uber Jason. I can't I can't help it. By that point, the movie's so outrageous, why not? I'll just honestly, I'll be honest with you, Jonathan, I would accept anything at that point. You know what I mean? Literally anything. I'd be like, whatever, man, you know, space lizards, it doesn't what whatever they want to throw in there, you know, I would have been, I'm like, yeah. I do wish it looked better. I mean, it is a pretty cheap looking movie. The cinematography is kind of uninspired. I do kind of wish that. Other than that, yeah, I've got no particular problem with it. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_28I think, you know, if you can walk into this with the right mindset, you're gonna have a lot of fun with it. And I would recommend this movie to anybody who's trying to get into the franchise, if anything, just to understand like how much fun these movies are supposed to be. Yeah. Because I think when you get into some trouble is when these movies take themselves far too seriously. That was okay at a time, but at this point, you know, we're we're on the the 10th movie. Right. There's no taking this seriously. There's nothing serious about it at this point, and that's yeah, that's okay.
SPEAKER_02You know, yeah. I do think it helps to have the background behind you, someone who have watched most of the films. I think it helps, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Because everybody knows who Jason is anyway. Even if you haven't seen the movies, you know what this is about. It still works, even for new fans and old fans. The guiltiest of pleasures. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_06Hi considered how valuable you are. Fame, money, my help. You know, I I I know people, you know, I mean I have connections.
SPEAKER_05You want your machete badge? It is yours, take it. Just remember who saved it for him. Guys! It's okay, he just wanted his machete badge.
SPEAKER_12Freddie versus Jason, 2003. Directed by Ronnie Yu, budget 30 million. Box office one hundred and sixteen million six hundred thousand.
SPEAKER_13Welcome to my night.
SPEAKER_07Freddy versus Jason.
SPEAKER_02Freddy versus Jason. It had to happen. It was gonna happen. You guys knew it was gonna happen. So it happened. Jonathan, what do you think of this movie?
SPEAKER_28It's the super heavyweight fight of the century, guys. Um, and and when I say Jason X was kind of the natural progression, this is the next step in that natural progression. This is what everybody wanted, this is what what I wanted, what I think should have been done much sooner. I love when things are crossed over. I think it's really fun when you merge universes together. And this is one of my favorite installments, but not because it's good. It's because it's fun. And that's where I kind of enter that realm with Jason X. This movie is incredibly fun, directed by Rani Yu, who also made my favorite uh child's play movie, Bride of Chucky. Uh, you can tell that it's the same director. Written by Mark Swift, Damian Shannon, who also recently wrote Send Help, which was directed by Sam Raimi. And this film takes place, uh, it's a sequel to Eight and Nine, but it takes place before Jason X. So basically, in this movie, we have Jason Voortes and Freddie basically decides to convince him to travel thousands of miles from Camp Crystal Lake to Springwood, Ohio, to basically kill the kids of Elm Street. Oh my god. I actually wanted to talk about that uh quite a bit because these motherfuckers have to walk. I tell you what, man. But yeah, so basically Freddie convinces Jason uh by impersonating his mother that he needs to go kill the kids of Elm Street. So he goes all the way to Ohio to kill the kids of Elm Street, and then that's a ploy to make the town of uh Springwood remember Freddy. Because at this point, the town has essentially completely stamped out any remnants that Freddie existed, and that's why he's so weak, that's why he's unable to get at the children of Elm Street. So when Jason starts killing, the town assumes that Freddie's back. People now believing in Freddy again kind of re uh vitalizes him, makes him stronger that he's now able to come back in their dreams. So that's kind of the movie in a nutshell. But I do want to talk about Jason walking. And this is a theme, I think, with movies like Slashers in the 2000s. Because you remember Michael Myers walked like a motherfucker in the Rob Zombie movies. That dude walked everywhere. And in this one, too. I mean, you're going all the way from New Jersey to Ohio. That's an eight-hour drive. So to walk that thing, I mean, you're talking you're talking weeks, which I think is hilarious. Yeah, he must have teleported. Let's go with that. Okay, we'll go with the teleportation. Makes sense. So one thing I like about this movie is that it doesn't take the conventional approach of casting that I think most of the Friday movies have, in which you're casting quite a few like nobodies, really. You know, in a lot of the Jason movies, the all of the kids at least are pretty young. This might be their first or second movie, not really well known. This movie, though, casted quite a few very well-known young people. And I thought that was really awesome.
SPEAKER_02I think, Jonathan, I think it is cast like a nightmare on Elm Street film, not a yes.
SPEAKER_28I would agree. Yeah. I would agree. You got Jason Ritter, who's John Ritter's son, you got Kelly uh Kelly Rowland of Destiny's Child, Monica Kina, who was in the Night of the Demons remake, Devil's Advocate, Orange County, Dawson's Creek, you got Chris Marquette, Fanboys, you got Lachlan Monroe, who was in scary movie Night at the Roxbury, and then you got Catherine Isabel from Ginger Snaps, which is fucking awesome to see. She plays kind of like a PJ Soul style uh character in this one. You got Zach Ward, the bully from Christmas story. Um I know, isn't that crazy? Which was awesome. I loved seeing him. Scud Farkas. Yeah, yeah. But I think that makes the movie stronger, honestly, because all these, I mean, as much as like a lot of these people are unlikable, I think they're written that way. But like, I mean, I again, I was in high school when this movie came out. I thought all of the high school characters were great as far as like their mannerisms, how they acted. They were all very superficial. That's exactly how fucking high school kids were in the 2000s.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_28Um, and I do think it's also cool Kelly Rowland of Dustiny's Child being cast here. She's only the third or fourth black female to have a supporting role in a Friday the 13th movie. So I thought that was really cool.
SPEAKER_02That whole part of it is what feels like it this feels um 80% a nightmare on Elm Street film than a Friday the 13th film. And I think one of the reasons that uh they were able to do this is this they had a $30 million budget on this. So someone really believed in it because they had more money for this than literally the rest of the franchise combined. Yeah.
SPEAKER_28That's what they spent that money. They spent that money. You saw where that money went too. That money did not get hidden, it did not get laundered, that money was used. The soundtrack alone is proof in the pudding. That's your era. That's your era. You know, but all these bands are, I mean, these were like sellout arena bands. Yeah. Pretty much. Large venue bands. So just to have the budget to put out a soundtrack of this capacity. I know some of the installments before this had maybe one or two hit songs, but this had like 13 or 14 tracks that were massive. Right. 20. No kidding.
SPEAKER_20Wow. 20. Wow.
SPEAKER_19It was uh 78 minutes of music, Lama God, Stone Stour, Nathan Leon, Spider, Seven Dust, Hate Breed, and this is gonna be a very unpopular opinion. I fucking hate Slipknot, but they're on there too.
SPEAKER_02That's a hell of a compilation, though. Honestly. I mean, that really is. I wonder how much Robert Englund made on this film. Well, this was his last Freddy. I just wonder. I just wonder how much he walked away with. I would have held out. The race don't make the movie without him, you know. It doesn't matter. They can they can recast Jason. I mean that's easy.
SPEAKER_19Is it Graham Ravel that does the score? Is that right? Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02He did he's done good stuff.
SPEAKER_19He did the crow, he did Dead Calm, really underrated.
SPEAKER_02He did Riddick. He did Riddick, The Chronicles of Riddick. Did that Riddick was awesome, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good music.
SPEAKER_19I think he did From Dust Till Dawn and a movie I'm in. The negotiator from 1998.
SPEAKER_02Where are you in Negotiator?
SPEAKER_19I am a background extra in one of the scenes in the third act, uh, one of the chase scenes. 95 to 99, I'm in quite a bit of movies. If it was filmed in the Chicago area.
SPEAKER_02You gotta send me that, because I have seen Negotiator at least a dozen times. Oh, I forgot you.
SPEAKER_19I'm in a movie. Uh Mercury Rising, uh The Relic, Barber Shop, cool, Primal Fear, and by in it, I mean I'm an extra. But you went to film school in that era, you had to be. Sure. You had to work on productions that were that large. Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing I stuck through film school after getting a taste of of what it's really like that early. But that's that was Columbia back in the day.
SPEAKER_20I understand.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, and you're right, you know, this does feel much more like a Freddie movie, Jim.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and to me, it's it's kind of to its detriment, but I do like the Friday the 13th sections of it. I I I'll just say I like Jason far more than I like Freddie in this. But let's go back to the beginning for a second.
SPEAKER_15My children. From the very beginning. It was the children who gave me my power. That's what they called me.
SPEAKER_02Because I do appreciate that they gave Robert England this time at the beginning at a pretty a pretty well-made little opening with the story, and we get to see him without the makeup, and it's it's I think it's pretty well done. But one thing that does bother me is that it really makes a point of that Freddie is a child murderer, you know, not a young adult murderer, but a killer of children, which is pretty, pretty dark. I kind of pull back at stuff like that, you know, when he's looking through his book of victims and his newspaper clippings. Like if they had been young adults missing, that's one thing. But eight-year-old little girls, I I don't know. I I kind of have a problem with that. On something that's supposed to be fun. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_19I don't know if you guys feel the same way, but Well, he is he is a child killer, and if you pay attention to the the original newline series, before we get to this point, they jump through a lot of hoops to avoid a child molester as opposed to just a quote child killer. Because you're right. That is first off, it's a sensitive topic, and it Freddy's no longer funny no matter how many quick puns he's got. Once you've been positioned as a serial child sexual assaulter, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02It's I agree.
SPEAKER_19I always got the impression in the first film that he was not just a child killer, but a serial child molester, which is why the parents were so fucking angry that they burned him alive.
SPEAKER_02I kind of got that too, but that tone is different. You know what I mean? This is not supposed to be that. This is supposed to be let's have fun, you know.
SPEAKER_19Tongue in cheek, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Remember, Jason, Jason was always more of a moral character. If you pay attention to part six, he he means no violence to children. In fact, you can make the argument he was protecting the children. Freddie's a different story. That's why Yeah. That's why Jason's just a better character. Well, at least in my opinion. I will say this there's more possibilities with the Freddy Krueger character because we're talking about the surreal nature of dreams, and that's the universe in which he operates in. Jason operates in the landscape of well, it's supposed to be reality, the reality of Crystal Lake, but you understand what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02I think there is a difference between the two. I mean, between the two, at least Jason has some kind of misguided nobility because that that is what he is. You know, if you if you take drugs, if you have premarital sex, if you do this, if you do that, Jason's gonna get you. I know it's a warped way to look at it, but he is that. I mean, he is like almost like an avenging angel.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, did I just say that Jason was a moral? Did I just say he was a moral character? I don't know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_28Well, if you had to choose between the two, he's the moral character. That's fucking insane. I mean, Jason, Jason is clearly more of a protagonist in this movie, as much as I think so too.
SPEAKER_02You got nudity right off the bat, so that's I guess that's a nod back to the uh Friday films, because I don't really think you had much of that in the it wasn't as as big a deal in the Freddy films. What do you think of the resurrection scene, Jonathan? Oh, um, I thought it was fine. Yeah, I thought it was cool. I thought the effects were great. Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. And I don't mind the story. Honestly, if you had to merge these two, would you be able to come up with something better?
SPEAKER_19We're gonna we're gonna get we're gonna get into that in a minute.
SPEAKER_02Okay, good, good.
SPEAKER_19This took this took a while. Yeah. But you're right, you're right, because there's so many directions you could go with. And honestly, the general narrative, yeah, makes perfect sense, actually.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I honestly thought it worked well. I thought I thought they did a real good job handling how the two characters interacted.
SPEAKER_02Well, I will tell you this this script had a lot more eyes on it than previous films. Oh boy. You know, because if you're if you're spending three million dollars at Paramount making this kind of movie, I tell you what, the script is not really is it that important? It's really just you know, is there enough kills in it? And that's pretty much it. But when you're spending $30 million on a film, you better believe that executives are getting involved to make sure that this thing works.
SPEAKER_19And they could not, for the life of them, they could not get everyone in agree agreement. Let me go through this. Let me I'll try to make this as brief as possible. All right, so listen to this. Newland Cinema spent a reported seven and a half million dollars over the course of a decade on script development from many, many, many different writers. It started with Lewis Abernathy, writer of Deep Star VI from Sean Cunningham, and House 4. This was somewhere between 1991 and 1993. Abernathy's first script entitled Nightmare 13, Freddie Meets Jason, was he was ostensibly the first screenwriter attached to this this project, but uh that went nowhere. Then in 1994, DeLuca turned to Bran Braggan Rinald D. Moore from Battlestar Galactica of Fame, who wrote the first Jason vs. Freddy. That got passed over. Then Peter Briggs comes in, and he's the guy that wrote the initial Alien vs. Predator. That got passed over. Then in 1996, Cyrus Forst and Ethan Wright from Demon Knight were commissioned by Cunningham to write a new script under the title Freddy vs. Jason, Millennium Massacre, with Rob Bouteen, known for his makeup work on the thing and Total Recall directing. Rob Bouteen passed. Then they went to Guillermo del Toro, I shit you not, and Peter Jackson. They both said no. Then they went to David S. Goyer and his writing partner, James Robinson, they passed. Then they went to Jonathan Abel and Glenn Berger, known for their work on King of the Hill. Cunningham didn't like the script. Then they went to Mark Verderheen, he passed. Then they went to the guy that wrote I Am Legend, Mark Protosevich, he wrote an entirely new script, they passed. Then they brought in Todd Farmer, Cunningham passed on his script. Finally, they went to Mark Swift and Damian Shannon in March 2002, and I believe those are the screenwriters. But I'll check, but check this out. I've just read this. Wes Craven, Del Toral, and eventual director Ronnie Yu all declined the opportunity to direct the film in the early stages. But I didn't know this. Rob Zombie turned this film down in order to helm House of a Thousand Corpses. But here's the thing. That was in probably 1999-2000. Since this movie didn't get made until a few years later, it's unknown if that's if he would have stayed with the project. So like I said, this went on for a decade. And those are just some of the writers, by the way, and some of the people attached.
SPEAKER_02Well, tell you what, if you start adding all of those script fees in there, I wonder what the actual budget is. Because these people don't work for free.
SPEAKER_19No, that's seven and a half million dollars just in development. And I want to tell you it's probably even more. Because remember, I've also read this. They started this process as early as 1987, where Frank Mancuso enlisted Tom McLaughlin, the director of Jason Lives, to begin uh a unification of the two franchises.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_19They also tried to bring in Joseph Zito. They also tried to bring in Wes Craven. And shockingly enough, they also tried to bring in Adam Marcus and Dean Lori from Jason Goes to Hell. No kidding. So from 1987 to when did this film go into physical production? I want to say 2002. That's a lot of money, man. That's 15 years.
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. Yeah. I guess they made it back. I mean, this was a success. It was. Yeah, and just because people are passing on scripts doesn't mean that, you know, we're just wasting money. Maybe they just didn't like it. I mean, and that could be. No one wants to move forward unless they got a script that they really believe in. So I can certainly see how I mean I didn't realize there was that many scripts written for this. But you know, but there's been a lot of movies like that where a lot of movies were. I mean, just think of uh uh, you know, think Raiders 4. I mean, that's fascinating how many writers that came on to do Crystal Skull, you know. I think the problem with that movie is that they just picked and choose different sections from everybody's script and threw them together until it got a runtime. Don't even get me started on that fucking someday. We will.
SPEAKER_19Can we talk about a thing that I I can only assume Shiffley agrees with me on this? And so do you, John Wesley. Yeah. One of the reasons I don't like this movie, I really don't like the casting of Ken Kursinger to play Jason in this. I know why they did it, I get it, but dude, that was fucking stupid.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, it's it is different. It's a different take.
SPEAKER_20Shefley, do you agree with me?
SPEAKER_02Well. Oh, maybe he doesn't. I don't as I say, I don't know if I do either.
SPEAKER_28I don't I don't necessarily have a problem with Jason in this. I mean, yeah, he's not Kane Hodder, but I think you were trying to cast someone a little bit differently. I think you casted the the right person based on what he wanted as a director that may not align with like what you're expecting Jason to be, but they wanted him to be bigger, they wanted him to be slower, they wanted him to be more deliberate, and I think that's what you got. I mean, this dude is like three inches taller than Kane Hodder. Yeah, that's the director's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I do appreciate that Ronnie Yu kind of knew what people liked because there are some pretty violent deaths on the Jason side, and there's also some creative dreamscapes on the Freddy side. So I don't know, I just gotta hand it to Ronnie Yu. I I think he did about as good a job as you could have done.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I mean, I I think what he did with Jason, uh it turned out exactly how he wanted it to turn out, and it's not the same Jason that you've gotten in previous installments. This is like more like The Undertaker, Jason. You know what I mean? Yeah, like he's more of a presence, he's not like he's he's brutal, but he's not the same as like King Hotter, who's like stalking you the whole movie and seems just really aggressive. This Jason is slow, methodical, and like, yeah, when he gets you, he gets you, but like he's almost more like a spirit than than an actual person. They did end it with the uh possibility of making a sequel, so see, I hate that.
SPEAKER_02That I don't like. That I don't like. I I think it's a cop-out.
SPEAKER_20There should have been a definitive winner.
SPEAKER_02There should have been.
SPEAKER_19That was probably in Robert England's contract. I honestly don't think we're getting another one of these until the death of Victor Miller. I think those two hate each other so much, they're never gonna come to consensus. Victor Miller and Sean Cunningham. I honestly don't think we're gonna get another one, and you're certainly not getting another one of these.
SPEAKER_28I don't think so either. Well, we've already we've already gotten a lot of this kind of shit in in comic books anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well see, no, that it can live on in that media, something like that.
SPEAKER_19It can live on in nostalgia. Sure. You're not gonna top what we got in the 80s, and that is precisely why the next film we're gonna be discussing is so goddamn polarizing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree. But as as far as this one, I think Freddie looks really good. I think they did a really good design on Freddie in this one. I this is funny. I was sitting there, I started watching it, and my wife said, What are you watching? And I'm like, I'm watching Freddie versus Jason. And then so she comes down and she comes down right when the someone's interviewing someone, like a reporter's interviewing somebody. I mean, she glanced at the TV and she said, uh, Kruger. And I said, What? And she and on the microphone of the thing it said K-R-G-R. Oh, that's cool. I didn't know. Kruger on that. How'd you know that? She said, Well, look at it. But I mean, you know, it was funny, you know, because she doesn't know anything about these movies. But she she caught that and I didn't, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_19Well, I should mention one thing because someone's gonna nail us for it. There's actually two actors playing Jason. There's a reshot ending in this film, and Jason is played by stuntman Douglas Tate. Oh, okay. Because someone's gonna complain. Also, remember we were talking earlier about the casting of Ken Kersinger. See, I disagree. I think that Ronnie Yu showed a lot of disrespect for the fans and the franchise, and here's why. Not only did they not cast Kane Hotter, according to reports, they had the opportunity to cast Betsy Palmer in the opening of this film, but they declined her due to salary disputes. And let's be honest, dude, I can only assume it wasn't that much money. It probably wasn't. Right. That was stupid too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that would have been cool. I agree. But Kane thought he had this wrapped up. They actually offered this to him.
SPEAKER_27You know, if you're in an office with someone that's in power and they give you the script and say, We're finally doing this movie, wouldn't you think you have the job? Even though no contract has been signed, I was given the script and told we're finally doing the movie. So I thought, ah, fantastic. I've been waiting for this for years. As the weeks went on, I didn't get much contact from them and I started worrying. Then eventually I was told that they chose someone else. I realized they were shooting the movie in Vancouver again, which is where we shot part eight, and that's where Kurzinger lives, and I could only assume that you know it was some kind of budget thing. Well, we got a guy right here that could play Jason that's local. Someone told me that they represented him as having played the character before. That's what I was told because he did the shot getting hit by the cop car in part eight. Technically, he had played Jason in a shot. He didn't play the character, he did a shot as the character. The reason they they always gave was they wanted somebody taller so that Freddie and Jason were more. More like this. And I've never had a hard uh, you know, any problem with him because he's offered to play Jason, the biggest movie of of the Friday movies. What's he gonna say? No, that's Kane's part. Of course not. It was offered to him, he accepted it as I would have.
SPEAKER_02But you know, just the don't offer it to me and then replace. His his point was that fans, yeah, sure, they wanted to see Freddie versus Jason, but he thinks they also wanted to see Robert England versus Kane Hotter. And he may have had a point there.
SPEAKER_19Yes, you know?
SPEAKER_02I agree with him.
SPEAKER_19I hate agreeing with him, but he's 100% right. And I think honestly, once I found that out, I honestly had no interest in this movie. And it continues for a lot of fans to haunt this movie. Yeah. I have a completely different feeling about this if it's Kane Hotter. I will say this though. This film brings back the fake drug Hitnessil. If anyone's paying attention, first introduced in Dream Warriors in 1987. I did think that was clever. There's a bunch of clever shit in this action. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_28It takes place at the same uh mental hospital. Yeah, what's the house?
SPEAKER_19It's very, very clever in a lot of areas. I just do not like the casting change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'll tell you this, it looks great. However, I kind of wish they had about a tenth of the budget that they really had.
SPEAKER_19The non-practical effects do not do this movie favors.
SPEAKER_20They just don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I just I just miss the scrappy nature of the original Friday the 13th, you know, when they had very little money to work with. These guys had all the money in the world for this, and you could tell, you know, it looks it looks too good. I'll just I'll leave it there. It looks too good.
SPEAKER_28It's polished. It's very it's very slick. But that was all the movies that the 2000s, dude. You know, it is the era.
SPEAKER_19It's the worst era in the history of movies. 2000s new line, all of the movies look like this.
SPEAKER_022000 is 2006, all the studios. It just that whole era is just bad. You know, there's even the camera work here, it's so elevated. There's even like a dolly zoom in it, you know, and I'm like, uh, it just doesn't feel right. Yeah, there's a critico shot. Yeah. You know. I'm coming at it from watching all of these Friday the 13th movies. Now, the Nightburn Elm Street franchise, they did introduce a lot more style than the Friday the 13th, the simplicity of the Friday the 13th franchise.
SPEAKER_19And the and the directors were a lot more experimental. Um music video experience there. That's one of the reasons. MTV, I think, really influenced the well, I think that's obvious, especially by the time you get to the third one. Remember how big, remember, John, do you remember how big the Docken video was? Oh yeah, dude. That was fucking huge.
SPEAKER_20Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The Dream Warriors, I happen to really like Dachan. I'm a big fan of Dachken from back in the day. And George Lynch was telling the story when they were shooting the video for Dream Warriors that he was so high that he could barely function. And that he they were with uh they were with Robert England and they were snorting coke off of the blade fingers. That is being amazing. That's heavy metal, man. That's heavy metal right there. Very few people are that cool, man. There's some cool deaths in this. I I am a big fan of the cornfield scene when they uh set Jason on fire and you got those great images of the fiery Jason walking through the cornfield, you know. Oh yeah. What was that dude drinking, bro?
SPEAKER_28I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_02I don't know any uh drink that just engulfs in flames upon I do I do like I do like the one shot where Jason puts that pipe through the couple that are on the ground and then he just tosses him into the stratosphere. See that shot? Yep, almost into orbit. I mean that dude went flying. Yeah, that dude is not coming back down anytime soon.
SPEAKER_28I really uh I really enjoy the uh the the kill early on where he uh he impales the the the shitty boyfriend. Oh, right and then basically like collapses him in the bed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is cool. You know you're in for a good time, right?
SPEAKER_28Yeah, you know it, you know it. I mean, all the kills in that house are fun, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they are. You know what, and that's that's what we paid for. Here, let me get back to this one scene. After they're leaving the cornfield thing, it's so funny. You got all those teenagers driving in the the van, and then one of them says, We need to find the police, and someone says, Fuck the police, just take me home. And as far as I can tell, that's just what they do. That's exactly what they do, yeah. Just take me home. It starts raining, of course. You cannot escape the rain in a Friday the 13th movie. Jason brought the rain from New Jersey to Ohio. He had to have. He had to. But isn't it weird that in the movie they're aware of Crystal Lake as if it's nearby? Did you get that impression?
SPEAKER_19You know, because they have I get the impression that it is nearby.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, isn't that weird?
SPEAKER_28Well, yeah, I mean, they drive, they have to drive him back to Crystal Lake, and they don't it doesn't seem like it takes them all goddamn night. They're not going to New Jersey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so they have they have relocated Crystal Lake in this film to make the to make it work.
SPEAKER_19Where are we? We're in Ohio, correct? Yes. Okay, so can't Crystal Lake is now in Ohio, apparently. That doesn't make any sense, but that's okay. Yeah, just go with it, you know. Teleporting, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There's this line, and it's I think it's stupid. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Freddie died by fire, Jason died by water. How can we use that? Oh my god, it's so stupid. I know. I mean, the dialogue isn't really much of an upgrade from previous movies, you know.
SPEAKER_28Then they they they should have figured out like a like an elemental and like a way to like end it with using the elements. Like, oh man, how can it how can I use dirt? How can I use dirt to kill him, you know?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I'm Mr. Heat Miser. I'm Mr.
SPEAKER_08I'm Christmas, I'm Mr. Christmas. I'm Mr. Christmas I'm too much.
SPEAKER_19There's another part of this uh that doesn't make any sense. If you've seen part six, you'll understand that Jason has no fear of water. Yet in this film, he's scared of water. No, it rains too much at Crystal Lake for him to be afraid of water. That doesn't make once again, it's another I I I I did the writer have the writers seen the rest of the series?
SPEAKER_28Yeah, it's just convenience. And maybe I'm missing something. Isn't he only afraid of water in the dream though? That doesn't make sense. Because they fight in the water at the end, and he's not afraid of the water at the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, the water thing is a total that's a total thing. I think it's more of a dream thing than anything else. Well, he says, I finally found something that you're afraid of. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So you just have to let it go.
SPEAKER_20I'll let that go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What do you guys think of the the final showdown? Not not the dream one. The dream one actually is pretty cool, though. You know, why won't you die and all that stuff? It is pretty cool. But the final WWE fight scene. Of course, we're gonna have a big WrestleMania type fight. Pretty over the top. I do I do kind of like it though. I mean, what else are you gonna do? That's what people came to see.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, third act is the best part of this movie. I do think it drags in the second, but it really gets a shot in the arm when we hit the third act. Yeah. Last 20 minutes of this are a lot of fucking fun. I that I will not dispute. I will not dispute that.
SPEAKER_02Freddie is actually kind of toned down from some of the later nightmare uh entries, even though he does have his you know goofy, how does Ben put it, his game show host dialogue, you know. There they're still that. It's not so bad. I mean, he does say stuff like how sweet, dark meat, that kind of thing. Um, when he's looking at Kelly Rollin. He's you know, but he is a pervert. You know, he is, he's a pervert. So yeah, he's got his classic Freddy lines, you know. Yeah, he does. The camp now looks like a battle arena, doesn't it? I mean, it really does. Oh, there's fire all over the place. Yeah, you know, it's it's pretty cool. How about that explosion? See that that explosion they did the with the propane at the end? That looks like a mini nuke.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, the fire, the the the fire effects in this, either the either by the stunt men or just the practical explosions are always welcome. I'm a big fan of fire and things exploding.
SPEAKER_02Do you notice that the docks, the crystal lake dock seems to get longer in every movie?
SPEAKER_20I was just gonna say that. It does. Where is this?
SPEAKER_02I do think it's fun. I'm not gonna be too harsh on it. I don't think you should be too harsh on a film like this. You know, I mean, I know there's holdouts for, you know, purists of the separate franchises, but I certainly don't think Nightmare on Elm Street fans would have a problem with it. I think the Friday 13th fans might have a problem with this. It this is not a Friday the 13th movie. This is a nightmare movie.
SPEAKER_19This should have been made somewhere between 1987 and I'd say 1990. If it would have been, I mean, man, can you imagine an 80s version of this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Wow. But I do think the end is a cop out. I think it's a cop out.
SPEAKER_28Yeah. Yeah, that's the one, that's the one thing I'm kind of I'm I'm not really sold on, is the ending. Right. Um, but it does leave the opportunity, John. If you want to make uh Jason versus Freddie and uh make it a gritty Friday the 13th uh sequel.
SPEAKER_02Um I would I don't I'm not in the habit of turning down work, you know. You could uh you could literally just start it where this one ends with uh Jason emerging from the water holding the severed head of Freddie, and you know the only way it works, the only way it works is if our theory about the lake itself was correct, like the lake itself was magical. That's the only way Freddie being alive at the end would work, right? Right, because it's the real world. So it's too bad that that the lake wasn't made into uh a mythology that there is magic in the lake, and that's why Jason uh can't be killed, because he gets his power from the lake. If that would have been canon in the franchise, then this would have made all the sense in the world. But I'm thinking with you, Jonathan. I I kind of dig it. Suck on that, Ben.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, I figured I'd be in the minority.
SPEAKER_02All right, cool.
SPEAKER_12All right, let's move on. Friday the 13th, 2009. Directed by Marcus Nispel. Budget 19 million, box office, 91,500,000.
SPEAKER_21You do realize this camp was closed down like 20 years ago, but I'm pretty sure the way the story goes, some woman she went nuts, killed all these counselors, blamed them for her son's drowning. The place is called Camp Crystal Lake. Jason. He came back.
SPEAKER_01My sister, she came camping up around here with some friends. She's gonna miss it.
SPEAKER_26She's dead. People go missing around here, they're gone for good.
SPEAKER_06You know how many thousands of people disappear every year? There's no evidence.
SPEAKER_02I still have not made up my mind on this one, Ben. Um tell us about this one.
SPEAKER_19Okay. So it's funny that we were just talking about Freddie vs. Jason, because a lot of people say they don't like the cast of this 2009 remake. I really dislike the cast of Freddie vs. Jason. I think the cast here is fine. A lot of stereotypical archetypes, but it's fine. But generally speaking, this is directed by Marcus Nispel, German film director who got his start doing music videos such as Ready or Not by the Fuji's, CNC Music Factory is gonna make you sweat. But more importantly, in 2003, he delivered the incredibly rare horror remake, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, that I think is really, really underrated. I like that movie quite a bit. He does a good job with that film. So it should come to no surprise that he'd be hired to direct this 2009 remake. Originally conceived as an origin story, this evolved into like a s I don't know how you would put this, maybe a soft reboot of the franchise. Where what they would do is they would combine elements of the first four Friday the 13th films, primarily as inspiration for character design and and the general narrative. Jason would be redesigned as a very efficient, very methodical, and fast killer with a very interesting backstory where the audience is challenged actually to have sympathy for him, but not enough where he loses his power as a trained killer. In keeping with the tone of the of the franchise, Jason's mask would be recreated from a Friday the 13th part three mold. That's very, very important because when you pay attention to this Jason played by Derek Mears, he looks a lot like my favorite Jason, Richard Brooker from part three. Great. I don't think I really need to get into the plot, do I? I think it's pretty fucking self-explanatory.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_19There are some changes that I like. For example, there's a terrific, even people that don't like this movie, I it it you'd be hard-pressed to disagree with me. The cold open of this, which basically chronicles ostensibly the first two movies in the uh in the series, is revealed. Then, of course, after that cold open, uh, where we realize, you know, the backstory with the mom, etc., etc., we're introduced to some elements from part three and part four. Mainly the barn, and mainly, and this is one of the best uh editions, unlike part three, where you never actually see Richard Brooker finding the mask, in this film, you get that scene. You get that uber important scene to this entire franchise where he finds his goddamn mask and he puts it on, and that transition from wearing a bag to wearing a hockey mask is actually pretty epic, and that's one of the reasons I think I like this. Unlike Chainsaw Massacre 2003 and the movie that was shot in my backyard, 2005's Animeville Horror, this is not uh a period piece. And that right there is where I I think a lot of the fandom gets off the bus on this movie. Should this movie have been set in the 80s? I don't know. I suppose if this was wasn't a good film, I would maybe agree with that. But to be perfectly honest with you, I think this is a good slasher film. It's thrilling, it's exciting, the cast I don't think is as obnoxious as everyone says it is. It's got some great practical effects, it does have some digital effects. Unlike the last film, I actually don't mind Derek Mears' Jason. Do I wish it was set in period 1980s like the Paramount films? Sure. I also love that they pull the psycho on us and they kill off there's a fake out with the final girl, which I think is a really bold choice. Right. Fundamentally, I watch this probably at least once a year. I do like this movie quite a bit, probably more than I should. I think it surprises a lot of people that I like this movie because I'm such a huge fan of the original Paramount series. But I don't know, man. If you guys don't like this movie, I'm I really like to hear your arguments.
SPEAKER_02I'll start. Hit me. And I'm not gonna say I don't like it. I think this I think I would call this a reimagining of Friday the 13th. If I if someone, you know, if I really had to call it something. Um the fact that it's not a period piece, I'm okay with that. Because it it we're not in 1980. You know what I mean? We're not. We are not. You know, we're not. I get that. But to me, this feels more like a Texas chainsaw movie. Interesting. There's a realism to it, and there's the camp isn't present. And by camp, I mean that the humor, you know, the goofiness is not present.
SPEAKER_19Well, now technically you're right on both counts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's the main thing for me uh calling it Friday the 13th. I I think this would be a great movie. I mean, it is a good movie. I'm not saying it's not a good movie, it is. I think it would be a great movie if it was some kind of original property, you know, and not Friday the 13th.
SPEAKER_19Oh, without yeah, without question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because this is the Jason of like parts two and three, right? Um, where he's just a man. Uh he runs, which he, you know, Jason does not run later. But does not, you know, I think it's a well-made movie. I just think it doesn't feel like Friday the 13th. That's really my only true criticism, you know, that it just doesn't feel right to me. That's all.
SPEAKER_19Because the tone is off. We have no doubt about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Steve Jablonski is the uh the composer, and I'm a big Steve Jablonsky fan. Uh real big. He did uh he works with Michael Bay a lot. He did the scores for the first three Transformer movies, which are some of my favorite scores ever created on this planet. So yeah, big fan of that. You know, I mean, the movie's kind of set up like well, it is no, it's different, man. It is different. This one's got a lot of different things to it. I'll just say original things. Um, and that by original I mean not included in, you know, previous entries. Keeping the girl alive was something totally different, you know. There's just there's it's just different. It doesn't feel quite right to me. That's okay.
SPEAKER_19I do like, I do like that they rationalize his ability to teleport with the tunnel system. Right. I like the fact that they I like the fact that they give him a source of income so he can survive. And if you pay attention to the dialogue throughout, especially with other locals that live in Crystal Lake, it's not made abundantly clear if they quote help him, but it feels like they also protect him, which is real, real interesting. It's an interesting, it's an interesting change by the screenwriters, because what they're doing is they're expanding not only his influence, but he may have some help out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or at least people warning them off. You don't want to mess with that guy. Just just stay away from him, leave that guy alone. Stay away from him. Jonathan, what do you think? Ugh.
SPEAKER_20I mean polarizing, I told you.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I mean, I I'm not like I don't hate it. I guess for me, um, I really I'm not a fan of this version of Jason, uh uh the movements. I don't really care for a fast moving Jason. That's just personal preference. I I think the best way to put it is that this is the film that I'll watch it, and for me, nothing ever really comes of it later on. Like I don't ever find the interest of revisiting it. It doesn't capture my attention like other movies have. I don't know. I mean it's it's it it looks nice and and and I mean it's it's it's got some cool stuff in it, but just overall it doesn't really latch on to me like others have. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That may be because the humor has been taken out. Yeah. You know, and that's a big part of it. That's a real big part of it.
SPEAKER_19You mean it does have some modest comedy, but you're talking about like in terms of tone, like the camp value. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. That's what makes the other films fun. I I appreciate this update, you know. Although I tell you, it does feel more like a sequel to Chainsaw than it does to F thirteen. I mean, to me, that's what it feels like.
SPEAKER_19Well, it definitely feels It feels like a slasher movie. And you're right. Imagine if you take the killer out and replace him with just something else. Yeah. This would be an excellent standalone, you know, new IP slasher. Yeah. Yeah. Like we just said with John, it's polarizing because of tone of Jason's appearance. It's very self-serious. I will say this of all of the Platinum Dunes films, besides the Chainsaw remake in 2003, this is the best. Amineva wasn't great. The 2006 Chainsaw. Don't even get me started on the Hindu remake. Nightmare on Elm Street remake. Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02Right. I mean, they were all remade, but they didn't go anywhere. You know, they didn't they didn't reboot franchises. They were just cashing in on existing IP. I will say this topless water skiing. I don't know why this never caught on, to be honest.
SPEAKER_19I agree. I'm a fan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm I'm all about that. Yeah, I think that's a good sport. I'd like to see that in the Olympics.
SPEAKER_19That was uh incidentally the scene in which I'm like, yeah, like that would never happen. Because trust me, I live on a lake. When you've got a beautiful like that, that's the scene. You're like, there are people on the lake. Pay attention to that sequence. No one's on the water. I'm like, no. That's the scene.
SPEAKER_02That's the scene that would never happen, huh? Okay.
SPEAKER_19By the way, by the way, this is shot in Texas, and you can totally fucking tell. Yeah. That is another thing I do not like about this film. I think a lot of people would have forgiven a lot of this film's sins if we would have gone back to New Jersey or Connecticut. I think so. And that's 100% Texas. There is no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_02Now, if I'm if I'm correct, now Jason's just protecting his marijuana crop, right? Is that what he's doing in this? Yeah, Jason's a doper now, man. Okay, that's what I thought. See, now that to me, that is Texas chainsaw stuff. That's not Friday the 13th stuff, you know. So I will say this.
SPEAKER_19It's a grittier, despite the fact that this is a slickly produced movie, it does have some of the grit and sweat and dirt that that 2003 remake had. It's not as dirty, because let's be honest, that's a filthy movie, which is why I like it.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I don't know. This this movie for me is forgetful. And I know that's like a harsh thing to say, but it does it does join the other films of this decade that are all kind of useless remakes. When a Stranger Calls, Black Christmas, Prom Night, My Bloody Valentine, like none of which had any business being made. Oh man, that's a podcast right there, because some of those are awful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're just cash grabs.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, and this this movie for me is just kind of in that. I mean, I'll admit that it's not as bad as some of those, but it's just forgetful for me. Um, I re-watched it for the purpose of this podcast, but that's that's about it for me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that the deaths aren't as um outrageous. I think they're kind of toned down. They're brutal, don't get me wrong.
SPEAKER_19They're brutal, and they're supposed to be more real, more realistic. They're realistic. As if he's a survivalist killer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. I think it feels kind of like back in the 70s and 80s, you know, we all we all rail against these movies for not, we're not railing against them. We're just saying, you know, they're all kind of paint by numbers. But every once in a while you'd get this really interesting slasher that was really well done and really effective, like affected you. And this reminds me of some of those. If I thought hard enough, I could probably think of a few that had a more serious tone. So Andrew Davis did this movie called Final Terror back in the day, and that had an interesting feel about it. It felt dangerous. You know what I mean? It's it's like an old slasher without the camp, the ones they took seriously. And that's what this movie reminds me of, because they were taking this seriously.
SPEAKER_19That's actually a good reference, John, because that is that's a survivalist slasher film. Yeah. You ever seen that, Shifley? It's really cool. It's got Rachel Ward, Daryl Hannah, Adrian Zemed, uh, and you know what? Joey Pants. Joey fucking pants is in it too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's in it. Final Terror. I think it's it it might be his first feature, Andrew Davis.
SPEAKER_19Is that the directorial debut of Andy Davis? No, he did um he did a musical, um, but I can't remember what it uh is it Stone Island? Stony Island? Musicals don't count. No, they can't. We could do a whole podcast on that guy. Anyway, yeah, yeah, I kind of see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, I like I like Andy Davis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it feels like like I actually I kind of actually start caring about the characters again in this because I don't actually want to see anybody get like you know really hurt too bad.
SPEAKER_19No, and you know what? It's funny you bring that up because for the for the first time in many, many, many entries, the leads actually have more chemistry than your standard like you know, roof shingle and a donut.
SPEAKER_02You care about them.
SPEAKER_19I don't I don't even like Jared Padalecki, but he's actually decent in this.
SPEAKER_01I think he's real good. When I read the script, that was a big draw because I grew up watching Fred of the 13th, and I grew up a huge fan of the genre. Um, and I was like, who gets to do that? And I get to do it twice. It's definitely hard to be method on on something as kind of fast and hectic as as uh this movie was. But um, you just try and be real, you just try and not fake it and go and make faces. You just try and um I try not to think about how I look, I just try and think about how I feel and just go from there.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, I I love Daniel Panabaker, especially at the end when she shockingly dies, and you're like, holy shit, they killed the final guy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_17There were things that I tried to have with this movie that I had had on the other movies, such as like knee pads and stuff like that, but didn't really work out well for me.
SPEAKER_18I think she's got a good heart, and that's why that's why she should be the final girls because she's looking for the best in everyone. She's not malicious in her intent.
SPEAKER_17Jason sort of recognizes me as his, you know, I resemble his mother. I I think there's um responsibility. There's something about being grounded and responsible and having sort of your heads crewed on trait and not not out to be getting into trouble and and not having sex.
SPEAKER_18Not smoking pot, no alcohol. These are more the good girls if you're gonna give Jason a run for his money.
SPEAKER_19You feel danger again. It's grounded in reality exactly, like just like Chainsaw. And that's what I think the newer generation that's what's ironic, is our generation, the Paramount generation, completely distrusts that. And that's why they rejected this movie. I do think, and this is what's ironic about Shiffley's response, is I've also heard from younger fans that they've also rejected this movie. And if it was a bad movie, I could get it. Maybe it is a bad movie, and my taste is just fucked. But I don't think it's a bad movie, I just think it gets lost between being a Friday the 13th reboot or reimagining and trying to be a modernist, like you know, survival thriller.
SPEAKER_28Right. I think that's exactly where I lose it. And I feel that same way about quite a few reboots. That makes sense. If they just did not latch on to the coattails of another IP, they could probably be fine.
SPEAKER_19I will say this though, and you go through the Platinum Dunes library, I still maintain that this is one of the better, because some of these on this list are and forget Platinum Dunes. I'm talking about the whole window between what 2003 and the end of the decade where they were just remaking these and remaking these and re-mating. And you brought up some of the other titles, but there was a lot of bad ones.
SPEAKER_02I'll state for myself, I don't think this is a bad movie. I think this is a really well-made movie. I'm not saying that at all. The comparison of having it being called Friday the 13th, I had a hard time getting past it because of course I'm gonna compare it, you know? Of course.
SPEAKER_20And you should. You should, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But they have to do it. If they want, if they want to make money on it, they gotta do it. You know? Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. That's probably the situation they were in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, it was a it was a it was a risk. Did it pay off? Well, the movie actually did really well. I'm I'm I'm shocked that they didn't pull the trigger and do a part a part two. Yeah. Uh it I think it was discussed as early as 2010, but once again, that rights dispute. Remember, to get this made, to get this movie made, listen to this. Newline cinema, Paramount, Platinum Dunes, and Crystal Lake Entertainment had to make a deal with fucking Warner Brothers. Think about that. Think about all those cooks in the kitchen. And I'm shocked this got made at all. Right. Initially, this was supposed to be an origin story. Right. So that means that we're somewhere between what? Uh 1958 and 19, what's the sex second film? 1981? Somewhere in there.
SPEAKER_28Someone needs to just make like a parody of this and just show Jason hitchhiking. Like I've got to get from Vancouver to Manhattan to New Jersey to Ohio to Texas.
SPEAKER_02Like that's the hardest working man in horror. And California.
SPEAKER_19Yeah, and California. Oh no, wait. And Alabama for part seven. So he also goes to Alabama.
SPEAKER_02Well, I gotta tell you, if there's one thing I would not be interested in, it's an effine origin story. All right. They they always screw those up. I am there's so much lore. I'm just not interested in any kind of origin story for Jason Voorhees.
SPEAKER_19And this is precisely where they fucked up with the Nightmare in Elm Street. Um well, they fucked up a lot of things, but that was one of them. And they did it with uh they did it with Chainsaw. Remember, there's the beginning. That didn't work.
SPEAKER_02They never worked. Oh god, yeah. That's shit show. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to make those things work. You know, there's some decent pickoffs in this, you know.
SPEAKER_19Some good stunts. There's some good stunts.
SPEAKER_02There's good stuff. And it does start raining, so that's you know, someone's paying attention, I guess. You know, you gotta have rain. It's fine. You know, it's it's fine. It's it's it's not a bad movie. I'm not saying it's it's it is a good movie. It's a decently made movie. I'll I'll leave it there. I don't know. I don't know what I think. I don't know what I think.
SPEAKER_28There are there are absolutely worse movies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there you go. I'm with Jonathan. But this is it, man.
SPEAKER_19This is the last, this is the last film in the uh in the franchise. It's kind of and and like I told you, uh until the creator of Jason Vorhees is deceased, I honestly do not think we're gonna get another one.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you could be right, but Voorhees isn't gonna, he's not going anywhere. No, he's not. Who actually owns the rights now? Is it still new line? I think it's new line.
SPEAKER_19Well, that's not that's not the problem. The problem is that Victor Miller and Sean Cunningham are at odds about there's a discrepancy between Jason Voorhees, the character, and the title Friday the 13th. And that's not going away. This is why when Cunningham sold his stake to Newline, Victor Miller owns the title of Friday the 13th. Right, right.
SPEAKER_28Yeah. Yeah, you get Jason Goes to Hell, Jason X, Friday the J. Not using Friday the 13th.
SPEAKER_19Exactly. And I'm telling you, that's never gonna get because I I believe Cunningham still owes Victor Miller just too much money. This is one of the reasons the game stopped being made. That incredibly popular game. Right. Victor Miller's like, hey, I'm not getting paid for this. Nope. I'm telling you, man, this was 2009. It's been almost 20 years since we've had a Friday the third, an official Friday the third, a real Friday the 13th movie. Right. Sorry, fan film directors, but you guys don't count.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, man. You just listening. You just pissed off about 15,000 filmmakers. Yeah. Because that's how many, that's how many fan films there are.
SPEAKER_19Hey, some of these guys are my friends, and you know what I mean. Yeah, I know some. I I have a lot of respect for you guys, but you are violating copyright. You can make all the fucking excuses you want. Come up with some original shit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I don't know, man. It's uh this has been a fun ride, I guess. Oh, that was a little Freudian slip. I said this has been a fun ride, I guess. No, it's I I had a I had a great time going back through these again. And I appreciate them more now than I did when um, you know, just growing up, you know. I now that I'm a little bit more sophisticated, and I see that the films genuinely are a little bit more sophisticated than they're given credit for.
SPEAKER_20Well, not not all of them. No, not all of them.
SPEAKER_14Not all of them.
SPEAKER_02Well, I tell you, after looking at all these, it's kind of hard for me to pick. Like if I had to pick like my top like three. I want to say that I probably would pick the one just because. Well, wait a minute. Now, if I'm gonna go just by the ones that I like the most, that's different. And I think that is the way I'm gonna go. The ones that I like the most. Um, the one that I like the most is six. Okay, and I think the other two that yeah, kind of like uh kind of like honorable mentions. I guess oh man. I kind of want to say Freddie versus Jason, but I'm not gonna do that. There's uh um I like uh I like five. God dang it. I like it. I don't know why. I it's um I like five, but God bless it. I don't know. Um I man, this is tough now that I'm on the spot, and I like two. There you go. Six, five, two. Those are those are my favorites. Wow, all right.
SPEAKER_28Shifley, what's your favorite? Oh well, I'm gonna go six, Jason X, and Freddie V Jason. But honorable mention, I would say final chapter. Maybe the new blood.
SPEAKER_02Come on now, make a decision. I like Jason X too, though. God dang it. We're gonna go six, six X and Freddie V Jason. There we go. Okay, cool, cool. What about you, Ben? Oh man, this is tough.
SPEAKER_19I change all the time. I know it is hard. I would say I'm not even gonna I'm not gonna do a top three, I'm just gonna do a top two. And here's how I'm gonna here's let me clarify this. Alright, so the best made movie in this franchise is Jason Libs. Friday the 13th, part six. However, if I had to make a reco of a Friday the 13th movie, like let's say I had a group of people over over the house, and they're like, alright, Ben, pick a the Friday that you want to watch. The one I'm always going to is not only my wife's favorite, but my favorite is 100% part three.
SPEAKER_03Part three, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_19Which I know a lot of people are like, well, this guy has clearly lost his fucking mind, but hey. No, three's good. Opinions are like assholes.
SPEAKER_20Everyone's got one.
SPEAKER_02Alright. I'm gonna I'm gonna remove my five and go with three. There you go. Yeah! Six six three, two. It's you know what, it's hard for me to it just me being the age that I am and grew up with these films. It it is hard for me to include the new line stuff. It it just is, it feels like a wholly separate thing. That's the only reason I'm not picking something out of that because I actually do like Jason X. We heard me tonight. I like Jason X.
SPEAKER_19You seem to like it a lot more than I than I thought. See, and that's the thing. That makes perfect sense that because those are the ones that that Shiffly kind of grew up with. Right, right. Shiffley's younger than us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, dude, I I do like Jason X. It's just to me, it's not really a Friday the 13th movie. It's a comedy, it's a comedy version of it. That's the only reason. Six, definitely my favorite. Now then, worst. Let's pick a couple in the worst. Oh man.
SPEAKER_20Well, if you're a true fan, if you're a true fan, none of them are worse.
SPEAKER_02Which one do you like the least? Uh, I think we're all gonna say Jason takes Manhattan is gonna be in there. Let me think. I'm not a fan of Jason Goes to Hell either. Uh, there's cool stuff in it. There is cool stuff in it. Um, but those would be the ones I like the least.
SPEAKER_19Like I was telling, I was telling this to Shiftley the other day, number eight is an incredible bore. Yeah, for most of its running time. But I gotta say, I detest part nine so much. Once again, if you asked me, we're gonna walk you know, we're gonna we're gonna watch all the Fridays. Yeah, that's the one I'd like to keep off of the list. So I'm going with part nine. Cool. Cool.
SPEAKER_28Schiff? Um, I don't know. I don't I don't really like uh you didn't like five, right?
SPEAKER_02You didn't like five. I don't remember you saying that.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, five is gonna be probably the one I would I'd feel most comfortable saying that it's like eh. Yeah because I I appreciate the end of Jason Takes Manhattan enough to say that I can I can at least put it on. Yeah. Same with like Jason Goes to Hell. Like there's enough stuff in that movie where I'll put that on when I'm fucking vacuuming, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like I just don't occasionally, yeah. But but I don't think I'll ever revisit after this retrospect that we've done. Like, I don't think I'll ever need to revisit part five.
SPEAKER_02I think Ben said this. He says fans rejected that one. They were not happy, I think you put it. They were not happy with with part five. I get that. I I like I said I wasn't either. But but now I appreciate the commentary that it makes on the uh the genre a lot more that I've you know studied it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_28Man, I am glad we did this though. I'm glad we did this because I you you can ask Ben. I talked a lot of shit about this franchise before we did this podcast. I've heard that. I talked a lot of shit about it, and I think this whole exercise that we've done here has made me appreciate it a little bit more. So yeah, and me too.
SPEAKER_02Is there anyone that was a surprise that was better than you remember? Well, for me it was five. For me, it was five. You know, because I was just I just I just wrote it off, to be honest, back in the day. It felt like such an underhanded way to keep the franchise going. But now it's so goofy, and it's and it's funny. Let's face it, it's funny, it's a funny movie.
SPEAKER_28For me, the new blood actually went up my list. Like, I had a ranking going into this, and that that's completely changed. But the new blood, I think, moved up on my list.
SPEAKER_19How about you, Ben? Uh, one. The original.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_19Believe it or not. Um, I used to classify that as an incredible board, but you know what? There is some shoe leather in that movie, but it's a lot there's a lot more tension in that. And I gotta say, man, hats off to Thompson Vinny. The practical effects work in that. The thing was caught in a tighter clip, you know, maybe about an 80, 82-minute movie. I think that's one of the reasons that a lot of people disregard it. But what, actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, cool. Um, you know what? All through this entire thing, I gotta say, I still prefer the actual look of one and two to the rest of the franchise. 100%.
SPEAKER_19And you wanna know why? I agree. Because we're in fucking New Jersey and Connecticut, yeah.
SPEAKER_28Yeah, I think if you could have recreated the grit of the first two and just kind of kept that throughout, I think some of these others would be stronger.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean, that's my uh I guess that's my final word on the on the cinematography side of things. There's something about them. They're they're gorgeous in a different way than, say, Freddie versus Jason.
SPEAKER_19It just feels real because it's like, oh, I've been, I was there when I was a kid. You know what I mean? I don't feel that way like watching part six, which is Georgia, or part seven, which is Alabama, or the fucking Remack, which is in fucking West Texas. No, of course not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, things don't really look like that. No, you know, like I I mean Freddie vs. Jason is like I'm gonna say the worst example, but I just say that in the context of what I'm saying. It's a actually a great looking movie, but things don't look like that. You know what I mean? No, no, they do not think things look like part one and two. That's what things look like. Yeah. All right, gentlemen. Well, I had a great time with this. Um, yeah, uh, this was a lot of work. I gotta say, but I had a great time with it. And uh yeah, I I look forward to doing this again with you guys. Yeah, this is six hours. Probably more than that. Probably more than that. I don't know if anybody's ever done this much work on the Fry 13 franchise, but you know, someone needs to. You know, we're not afraid of it. We'll do it.
SPEAKER_19Let me know when let me know when you guys want to do Amityville, because I think that's forty four movies or some shit. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Dude, we would have to do it. It'd be like speed dating. Oh Jesus. All right, guys. Hey, have a great night. Yep. Thank you. You too.
SPEAKER_24Cynical isn't it? It's terrible. It's a terrible film. I think a much more interesting point is that the message that it sends out is not that this is the way the world is, but that now now you've really got on the subject, which is that watching girls, and it's mostly girls again, getting stuck is entertainment. See, that's the that's the pornography. It's really sick. That that that this is legitimate entertainment too. That you can go to a theater movie. Isn't that wonderful?
SPEAKER_12Thank you for joining us. Be safe out there.
unknownShh shh.
SPEAKER_09Well, that makes me think of a little girl in a pink dress sticking a hot dog through a donut.